131: Broken Windows Behind Bars - Interview w/Shaun Klucznik

The fastest way a jail gets dangerous isn’t a single riot or headline event, it’s the quiet drift: missed checks, inconsistent rules, sloppy units, and leaders who stop sweating the small stuff. We sit down with Major Sean Klucznik, Jail Administrator at the Hernando County Sheriff’s Office and immediate past president of the American Jail Association, to talk about what actually stabilizes a facility when staffing is tight, budgets are political, and public trust is fragile.

We get into what he saw while traveling during his AJA presidency, including the funding battles agencies face nationwide, the importance of professional networking in corrections, and how relationships can turn into real outcomes like regional training partnerships. Sean shares how connecting with NYC corrections led to the launch of the Northeast Regional Correctional Training Center and why “back to basics” direct supervision still matters when everything feels like it’s changing.

Then we go deep on his book, Broken Windows Behind Bars: Transforming Jail Operations Through Order and Accountability. The core idea is simple and hard at the same time: consistent standards prevent bigger problems. We talk mentorship, first-line supervision, ethics as a slow creep, micro training that supervisors can run every shift, and why line staff can shape culture by “setting the tone” with professionalism, presence, and follow-through.

Subscribe for more real-world corrections leadership conversations, share this with a partner who cares about doing the job right, and leave a review so more officers can find it. What’s one small standard you’d enforce tomorrow to make your facility 1% better?

You can reach Shaun -

Email - shaunk@aja.org

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/shaunklucznik

Website - https://www.keeperofthekeysleadership.com/

PepperBall
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.

Command Presence
Bringing prisons and jails the training they deserve!

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Welcome Sponsor And Guest Background

SPEAKER_00 0:35

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. Before we get started today, I want to just thank our sponsor, Pepperball.com. Pepperball has been a sponsor of this podcast for a long time. I used it when I was an officer. I'm still a master instructor for Pepperball. It's something I believe in. If you haven't had the chance yet, go check out www.pepperball.com. Check out their launchers. Check out the different pepperballs that we've got. We've got some new glass breakers. If you're working corrections, go check out the blast or uh even the burst, which are new products where that releases Pava into the air. Non-flammable, so perfect for correctional facilities. And uh if you haven't done so yet, go to Amazon, check out my new book that came out in May, Weight of Justice. It's doing great. I thank all you guys. I've gotten some good reviews and gotten lots of emails and chats telling me that people enjoyed it and that they got something out of it. So that makes me feel really good. Uh today's guest, I've got uh we we had him here back on episode 107, Sean Klusnick. 107 was inside the American jail system, leadership and innovation. And I I've been watching Facebook and LinkedIn back and forth, and and he's I just really I just checked on him to see if he had time because he he is a busy man. So Major Sean Klesnick serves as the Judicial Services Bureau Commander and Jail Administrator at the Hernando County Sheriff's Office in Florida. He's been working in the criminal justice field since 97 and holds dual certification in both corrections and law enforcement. Major Kluznick is a graduate of the FBI National Academy, Section 283, American Jail Academy, Command Academy, Class 10. He currently serves as a commissioner on the Florida Corrections Accreditation Commission. He's also a certified jail manager through the AJA. He's the also, and we're going to talk to him about this, he's the immediate past president of the American Jail Association. So that's been his position for the last year, and I want to hear about that. Major also holds an Associate of Science degree in criminal justice from St. Petersburg College, a Bachelor of Arts from St. Leo University, a Master of Arts degree in philosophy from St. John's, and a graduate certificate in criminal justice education from University of Virginia. Another thing we're going to talk about today, he has a new book, uh Broken Windows Behind Bars: Transforming Jail Operations Through Order and Accountability. And we'll see what else he's got up his sleeves. I'm sure he's doing more than just that. So welcome back, Sean.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It's always good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah, I love having you here. I love and you've got your finger on the pulse of corrections, and I think for the last year, you've had really had your finger on the pulse of corrections. Tell me about how this has been. You were AJA president for a year. What was that like?

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah, so I swore in in May of 2025 and uh hit the ground running. I got to come on this show and then got to do little news segments for a couple of stations when uh New Orleans had their big escape. So I mean that was within two weeks of swearing in. So that was that was pretty crazy. But uh it's

Leading AJA Through Connection And Media

SPEAKER_01 3:44

it was an awesome, awesome year. What a great association we have. Um I mean, we got a lot of cool things done last year. It was an absolute blessing to be part of that and to be able to to you know to lead those. We have some amazing people on the board of directors, amazing volunteers, uh, and all of our members obviously are are phenomenal. Uh you know, one of our key benefits of being a member is is our iConnect and the connections on iConnect with the conversations that happened were, you know, there's no new problems and corrections. And if there's something new, somebody else is dealing with it at the very least. And uh, you know, there's no reason to, you know, why not steal something, somebody's idea and take advantage of it and help help fix your problem or offer offer some insight to help somebody else. Uh so iConnect's a great place for people to connect and and and just problem solve and share policies and share ideas. So uh that that was that's really kicked up. And and I tell you, I'm most proud of our social media footprint. And uh I think you've probably seen a couple of episodes of our podcast. We produced nine full uh podcasts last year, something that AJ has been trying to get off the ground for uh a lot of years, and thankfully uh we were able to do that. And on top of that, uh we've done more importantly, uh I'm in charge of that committing now. So as the media pass president, President uh Judon asked me to continue that. It was mine. I formed the committee and she asked me to run it. And I said, Oh, no problem. So we're uh we're actually recorded two so far for this year, and we got a full lineup coming up, and we're excited about that. That's I mean, we had some really improved numbers on social media.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

So great, great. You're talking about iConnect. You know, one of the things I notice when I travel and I hold classes, if I go to a law enforcement class, everybody has a business card. And when I go to corrections classes, it's one of the things I talk to them about. You you you make it through this profession so much easier with networking. I collect I started collecting business cards and got mine when I was a CO, before you know I would anybody paid for it. I paid for it for myself because there are times where I haven't dealt with this. Here, let me get on the phone, see what so-and-so thinks. And I can guarantee you uh part of what made my career was the fact that I had reached out to other people and and made connections. So I I I think everybody should carry a business card when they go to training, when they go to wherever they get to go and make those connections.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

You could always download the on the app, exactly. Yeah. I think it's too easy to exchange conf uh contact information. It's really good. It's a great idea. I mean, and that's obviously any kind of networking is is important. You know, anything we do in this profession, especially in leadership roles, is developing relationships. And that's not just internal, it's obviously external and uh and even outside of the profession, because you know, leadership is leadership, and uh it it can translate to many different you know venues. So um I agree with you a thousand percent.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So I know you got to travel a little this year, go out and probably meet some corrections people you hadn't met before, see some places. What's your overall thoughts about where corrections is and what what are staff feeling like?

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Well, I mean, obviously we're still facing a lot of challenges, uh a lot of staffing challenges, just even just respect in the community challenges, those kind of things are uh crazy. We're I was sitting through this morning and most of the most of the afternoon sitting through watching our our county commission talk about just budget local budget. So there's an absolute battle all across the country when it comes to funding jails and prisons. Nobody wants to. Who I mean, why would you want to spend money on those? Those are things you don't even want to think about, never mind spend money on. So but but I mean everybody's battling the same things. Uh luckily I've heard some some positive news. I can't even report locally in our facility. Uh we're fully staffed, so it's great news. Nice. I mean the county to our south, they're they're still struggling to staff up fully, and and a county to our north is is uh battling some real contraband issues to include federal indictments uh for staff for smuggling contraband and some it's there's problems, and then there's there's great things happening across the country. So I mean my favorite trip of the year, I mean besides conference, but I had the opportunity to um I was invited by the New York City Department of Corrections to come and uh represent the AJA at their 9-11 memorial, had an opportunity to speak there. What an impressive group, uh especially when they're the dress blues, right? That's a sharp uniform. Uh it was an absolute, uh absolute honor to go up there and and and take an outside tour of Rikers. It was a very busy day, didn't get to go inside. Uh, made some good contacts like we were just talking about, and uh ultimately we ended up with uh some good relationships. Even with a major change and leadership change, those relationships remained, and um we've had a pretty successful year. As a matter of fact, at uh little crescendo this week, we were able to negotiate and work together uh with the New York City Department of Corrections to form the Northeast Regional Correctional Training Center. And New York City Department of Corrections is hosting that. And our very first class started uh beginning of this week and just wrapped up today. Um it's uh direct supervision, basically back to basics. It's a familiar, familiar thing with me. But uh, you know, former president Sean Laughlin and uh past president uh Tony Callisto, they taught it. It was very well attended, and looking forward to that. The partnership's gonna be fantastic. It's it's uh you know, huge, huge group. I mean, that you know, they have uh if I can't remember exactly, it's I want to say 6,000 inmates and roughly the same amount of employees. So that's that's a huge system. Yeah. It's but what a blessing that was to be able to. I've never been in New York City either. Uh you know, I grew up in Massachusetts. So I mean I've got it blurred out for everybody, but my patron stuff's still behind me on the wall. So I felt like I was walking around enemy territory, but it was what a what a cool city. It was it was really cool, really cool week.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yeah. I I got to meet some guys at One Voice United earlier this year at a conference. They were there. I don't know if did you meet Richard Palmer and Phil Rizzo? Yeah, they're gonna be on the podcast here. I was talking to them yesterday and to tell the story about nobody on I don't think most people understand what corrections did during 9-11 work in that pile. I was I was taken back by their story and everything, so I can't wait to get them on here.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Yeah, it was it was awesome. And and I'm and I'm I'm glad that they're stepping up and making sure that they are at least recognizing themselves. Sometimes there's some there's some battles. The heroic work that was done. And we at all corrections is behind the scenes, right? Uh they led the way. They they handle business like like true New Yorkers did, and and any any one of us would have, most likely, and if the same scenario had happened in our our same home. Uh that was amazing. Amazing stories.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Yeah, truly. So I was on your website for your book, and I've got I told I told myself I'm gonna bring this up fairly early because I learned something that I did not know. A Kluznik in the grand estates of old Poland meant keeper of the keys, or was a trusted guardian of access and steward of order. So did you know before you went into this

Staffing Funding And A Look At Rikers

SPEAKER_00 10:44

business that? Or is this something that came afterwards? And how cool is that to have that as part of your heritage? Yeah, what that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

I don't remember when I realized it, but there was the there was a movie that I found. It's actually it's a poorly made, I think they made it with Tamcorder back in the day. It was all in Polish. I mean, I've been to Poland twice. My dad was born in Poland. What a I mean, that's and I'm actually halfway through seeking my Polish citizenship by descent, which is kind of cool. Cool. They made this movie, and then I'm like, it's it's called the House Master. I'm like, so I looked it up and it actually Kluznek translates to either House Master or Keeper of the Keys. And I so you know, as I'm saying that out loud, it it absolutely was after I was in the profession. So I realized that's kind of weird. Look where I work. It was at my first jail. I can I mean it was pretty young in my career, but it it's it it just kind of made hey, maybe it was fate, but it was uh you know, it's a it's a it's hard to say, harder, harder to spell for some people, but it's it's a cool thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah, it's in your heritage to to be this involved in corrections because you truly are. You're involved in corrections at so many levels, and this year has been so busy for you being the president, you do the certification stuff, wrote a book. Yeah, I mean how long's that been going on?

SPEAKER_01 11:59

That was probably about three years, honestly. It was and and I've had great opportunities. Thank God for my sheriff. My sheriff is amazing. He's very pro training, pro getting our names out there. Um and anytime we can represent him well, we're uh or the agency or the accounting, it's it's good for everybody. He recognizes that and and he sees the value in putting ourselves out there, especially when we're offering a good product. And and you know, he says it. If if things weren't going well at home, because I have a great staff and my command staff is amazing right now, I wouldn't be able to do the things that that he's letting me do. So it's an absolute blessing. Those guys are rock stars and and our sheriff really promotes it. So I've had some opportunities to do things. I mean, Florida is very, you know, progressive when it comes to doing corrections right.

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

And we we uh you know floor medal jail standards, so I'm on the commission for Florida Corrections Accreditation Commission, and and then my involvement with AJA has been amazing. Uh it's it's yeah, like I said, it was a it's an absolute blessing to to be able to do that. Very busy, no doubt. And there's no way, there's no and and I'm always working on something else too. So, you know, I I've even become real good real pretty good friends with uh I don't know if you know Tate McConnell from the National Institute of Jail Operations. We are we've talked a lot lately. Uh his, I don't know if you ever ever if you should have much podcast, honestly. His legal-based jail guidelines are phenomenal. What a product that they are. It's uh basically a national accreditation, but it's legal-based. That means it's not, you know, one size fits all. You know, our state accreditation won't work in Georgia, most likely, because the laws are different. Uh I mean we share the same federal circuit, but obviously state laws are different. And and you know, sometimes the best practice concept doesn't necessarily mean it's legal or you know what the Supreme Court has said or what your circuit court has said. So Tate's product is really cool and uh it's something that anybody should really start paying attention to.

unknown 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

I'd love to have him on here. I've it's one of the things I've been pushing the last few years is you know, you go to a police academy and you get taught case law. The number of people that don't know Whitley versus Albers that I run into on a regular basis, whose job is to know Whitley versus Albers when shit hits the fan, and they've never heard of it. And uh it is something we need to push uh to get that out there. So yeah, I I'll I'll get the info and I'd love to have him on here and talk about that. Happy to connect you guys. Yeah. So you've been working on the book for a little bit. Tell me what what was the what was the catalyst that said I want to write this.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

It's funny, is is I I read this. I mean, obviously I read uh Fixing Brook Windows, the book, that's the concept, right? And I'm like, man, that is what a simple idea. And I, you know, I realized as soon as my book came out and I was talking about, I knew there was gonna be some haters because obviously there's some negativity that came out in that book and and New York City and the policing styles, and but but okay. Yes, everything can be flawed, but I'm just talking about the basic concepts. So if you see a if a broken window in a building is there and you don't repair it, odds are good that another one's gonna break, or eventually people are gonna move in, the building's gonna fall apart, right? So that just clicked in my head. Then I saw this one this one image one time, and I'm gonna read it. It says, uh stick to the basics, and when you feel like you've mastered them, it's time to start over again, begin anew, again with the basics, this time paying closer attention. Signed coach, right? So I've always said, and I've told all the way back to being uh a field training officer, if you take care of the small things, the little or small take care of the small things, the big things don't happen. If the if it's as simple as if the in if the MHC and what a what a I loved it when it happened, no, it's Kluznick, right? When the shift change happened, it's Kuznick. But at least they knew what they had. And and I would I would tell them, listen, here's the here's the scenario, guys. I by policy I'm required to search two of your cells. So if I'm walking around doing a well-being check and and you decide or your roommate decides not to make their bed and and have contraband or or too many pictures on the light and all the different rules, then that's gonna be an invitation for me to come in and choose your cell to search. So let's make it look good and make it hard on me to pick. And and it self-policed, amazing, right? But those those basics, they knew that I was gonna, and I did do those two searches at least. And if more than one, more than two cells invited me in, I spent all day searching, it's fine. But they knew that it was gonna be consistent, and those consistent execution of the basics keep us out of the grease so often. It's and you know, think about you you have those officers who work next to you that wait waited for you to go home and then the fight happened, or waited for you to go home and then a suicide attempt happened. Because you did you're gonna do your checks, you're gonna make sure you're there. And and if your rev reputation is you're gonna do the right thing and and execute on the basics and always be that way, um, I mean, that's hard. But it is hard. It's hard to be, we're human, we're tired, uh, we get stressed, uh, get distracted, and and you know, something at home is bothering you, you get distracted, but it's it's hard. But if it's consistent, you can kind of go in your routine. And and the concept was something that just triggered, and and I kind of got a sign direct earlier, and that's when I was talking about it. You have to do some traveling across the state. So in hot in hotels at night, I started working on just just concepts, you know, uh breaking it out, uh breaking out the the chapters and building them out. And uh it's just it just really it finally got to the point where I'm like, you know what, I'm really close here, maybe I should concentrate and actually finish it up. So I I did take advantage of some travel and send time to hotels at night and and just got locked in. Connected with a fantastic publisher, Jody Costa, uh from Shine Press. She's a local, local boutique publisher at Tanta. Um and she helped me finish it up. And uh it's it's been a I'm pretty impressed with what's happened. Um you know it's you know, it's not a huge number of sales, but it it's uh I'm impressed. I've almost broken even now with the cost for putting it together. So it's it's exciting. It's real exciting.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

You're doing good. A lot of people think, you know, that if you write a book, everybody's Stephen King. No, if you're writing a book, it's because you care, you know, and you want to get that info out there most of the time. But uh yeah, it's great that you've uh actually broke even because it does cost. It's it's not free to do all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

You know, I mean, and obviously there's time investment and and uh you know, but if it's something that you're passionate about, it's it's almost a hobby. And I I say this quite often, and I probably shouldn't say it so loud, but you know, I get to I get to go to work and it feels like a hobby. I go to work because I enjoy it. I love it. I I I don't I mean, there are mornings where it's harder to get up at 3 30 or 4 o'clock and just go and I don't have to, but I do because I I choose to. Um but it's you know it's it's an absolute love of the game. And it these it's it's an important game that we're we're we're handling, and a lot of people just don't know what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

So yeah. And that's why I love the fact that

Keeper Of The Keys And A Career Path

SPEAKER_00 18:59

you're sheriff's blood, and it's something I've talked about, this transparency. They've got to see us when we're doing good. Because the only thing that you can go on YouTube and you can look all day long. Uh I I did a class not too long ago where I'm talking to uh field training officers, and so you're looking at you know places where we can rate them good and rate them poorly, and finding videos that I could show to rate good, just just basic communication between an officer and an inmate. I had a hard time finding it. I eventually went to Axon and said, Hey, you know, can you guys come up with something for me? Yeah, and and that's because of the way we're looked at, the way that uh the media portrays us, I think. Absolutely. At the same time, I get to travel, and I'm so lucky these days because I get to go teach classes, and uh most of the people in the class want to be there. And I see some of the best of the best. And Corrections is so full of people who are out there doing amazing things inside and outside. Uh so I I always enjoy that positivity that I hear from you uh when you're on here also. So let me to ask you this. When when you talk about in the details, you know, the the Bureau of Prison said firm, fair, and consistent for years. That's still what they teach. Are the do the inmates want that as much as the officers do? Do do rookies understand that?

SPEAKER_01 20:25

That depends how it starts off, I guess. Um so I'll I'll tell a quick story. I just we just hired two uh certified individuals who came from that jail who was telling you about the trouble, a little troubled lately. And to day one, my administrative sergeant from actually from from uh recruiting and first contact, my administrative sergeant's their guy until he they get all the way through FTO. And that that includes if they get hired as a civilian and we put him through the account. I mean he's he's locked in with them for you know a full year. And uh, but to to talk to them on Monday, this Monday, it was it was you could tell that there was a one, uh I think a sense of relief. They're in a situation that's a little safer at the very least. I mean, there are some real bad things happening. Uh you could search it. And they were successful, got through a background check, and they're excited to be with us. And and you could tell, I loved the fact that both of them uh were men of honor. So they they were hired and they signed a two-year agreement and they waited until their two-year agreement was done before they they saw. I mean, they I think our application was in before the two years, but then they finished their two-year agreement and came to us and that actually sold me because that's that's a stressful situation they're in. But you know, you make a commitment, you're there, right? Those guys, they're they're locked in. And they've they those two years of experience they had in the troubled uh situation is gonna help them realize that holy this is great. We can do what we do here, you know, making sure we're taking care of this. You know, they don't have to worry about necessarily I mean, it could happen, obviously, no jail's perfect, but they don't have to worry about those cell phone being found or or being exposed to fentanyl in the housing units. It's it's a you go to work feeling a little safer because you're you're running the place right. And that's the testament to everybody. And that starts early. And that's, you know, when you're coming out of the academy with no experience, you've got to set the tone on FTO. And if you don't have the right FTOs, man, that's things can go sideways. And that's, you know, FTOs and first line supervisors. I always joke around as a jail administrator, I can ruin morale in a in a heartbeat. I can't fix it, but who can control it and manage it are the first line supervisors and the training officers who set that set that tone. So uh it's yeah, it's it's definitely a challenge, but it's it's definitely worth the extra effort to the the communication and those. relationships you you need to have relationships with everybody and and that was I think it was important and always important for and I I fell off a little bit of biddy busy last year but I want to make sure I'm there on day one introducing myself and you know I always joke around I said I know you from your file but let me let me talk to you as a person you know face to face um so it's yeah it's it's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

It's interesting that you mentioned safety because that's something I I hear a lot from especially new staff. And I don't remember I don't remember not feeling safe but I hear that as a regular thing that they don't feel safe these days. And I think this is just me. We've pushed these guys off a little bit the newer staff that with we push them off and I hear older staff say well they won't listen I'm not talking to them you can't do that. Right? This is the next generation it's so important and anybody that's listening to this, I'll tell you it makes me mad if you took your 20 or 30 years and left with it. Because you should have left it behind. The people that need it are the people that are coming up. Absolutely and how do we help how do we how do we bridge that gap a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

So I think what we're I think we've I think we've lost a little bit of the you know we're old enough you and I

Broken Windows Basics Inside A Jail

SPEAKER_01 23:49

to to know that we if something need to be settled in the high school parking lot it got settled right that doesn't happen anymore. We our SROs seem to be everywhere and then the kids are kids are going to jail at times for for just fighting in high school or or middle school and so I think there's some level of maybe they don't feel safe because they're not confident in their ability to be safe. I mean I grew up I grew up in in a city and and I think I had good pretty pretty good street sense and I think that helped me in a housing unit and that helped me with my sixth sense and that little intuition when something's going to go sideways. And I think kids lost that a little bit. I think cell phones and text messaging and Snapchat and those kind of things have have hurt communication but you know it is it exactly what you just said. It's up to the old guard to to pass on the knowledge and and don't you know take your ball and go home with it. Make sure you you're putting your arm around people listen it takes a lot it's very expensive to hire somebody and to to retain them is way cheaper than hire hiring somebody else. So if you have a little patience and and be willing to put your arm around somebody and and offer just a little bit of I have a couple deputies who directly text me and I may be a little too frank with them sometimes when they ask me some questions about about you know their personal growth and those kind of things but man would I have killed to have that access to a senior mentor and and uh you know and pick their brain and just randomly and and and but I and I admire that that that frank response. I mean I I had I hope Brian Head will watch this Brian Head was my professional mentor at Pasco. He actually kicked me out of the nest to go to Fernando when in 2010 when we took over from from uh Core Civic. And um and I I felt sad because he was I love the guy and and but he's pushing me out. He knew there's a good opportunity there. But he was also the one when I was being a a bit of a jerk when somebody got promoted that I thought I should have been promoted when I was really young. This is my first promotion I'm talking from from deputy to corporal uh and when when I didn't get that that appointment to corporal I mean I really I was really showing showing my rear end and he was the one that grabbed me by by the shoulder and said hey Sean we know we love promotions around here we love watching the promotion the process watching that person swear in and take over but we also like watching who we think should be next and how they react. So you're putting on quite a show I remember that clear as day and I said you know what you're right and and that really that turned me there too. But yeah you need that though you need somebody to just be willing to kick you in the end and say hey tighten up a little bit and and if you're not willing to hear it that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

But we need leaders and at every level leaders to be willing to say hey here's a better way to do this or can you look in the mirror and let's have a little conversation but you have to be willing to hear it and not everybody is that but the I think the ones that are willing to take the the the critique eventually turn into the ones that are off the critique and hope hopefully you know help the next generation too absolutely somebody asked me the other day they said who are your mentors as far as officers and I got to thinking I don't remember you know we didn't talk about mentors in as a word back then but I can name a bunch of people who modeled what a good correctional officer was for me. And that was kind of what I followed was was this person or persons because there were several of them the way they carried their self consistency fairness communication all the stuff we talk about nothing's changed nothing's changed in the what 30 years you've been in yeah yeah it it's still the same how we deal with inmates.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

And you can learn just as much from the ones that you wouldn't want to be emulating that you know watch the bad habits or or you know not having uniform tucked in right or or showing up late you know what do you you draw the attention to yourself you don't want to do those kind of things but I I've learned the most from my from my supervisor I wouldn't want to work for anymore.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

And and obviously you take the the best from the best and and you if you're always if you're looking to learn no matter what you you can find you can find wisdom in anywhere you're looking so yeah and I had a micromanager and I was later in my career and he was a hardcore micromanager but yet he taught me because I shut my mouth and I did what he needed done and I learned how to be better at what I did more specific in my tasks and that type of stuff. So you can make you better to technical knowledge and your writing right they always the micromanagers always make you zero in there's no doubt there another thing that I hear you talked about those two officers who stayed and fulfilled and and this is kind of that accountability you know we we we talk about that during our in-service training once a year and stuff but and I I find that that goes along with the details are you accountable to what you do every day to what policy says every day or are you trying to skim? What can we what can we talk to those newer staff about to get teach them accountability?

SPEAKER_01 28:51

So I and that's another another set set the standard immediately and and we had those conversations where like you know uh we have a couple images of our our sheriff on the wall when when they get there and and we remind them he hired you so it you know it's a good opportunity to never make that make him take that smile off his face you don't want you don't want to embarrass the sheriff but that's that's by just following policy. And and I mean our policies are solid if you follow policy you'd be safe uh and if but if you're in a situation where you think something unethical is going on or something illegal is going on you you have to be willing to to report that it's you know we when we started it was you know you you well this guy's a snitch those kind of things come on our profession has has become more professional in the last 30 years. I don't think our any profession has transitioned further than corrections uh than where we are today and I don't want to work next to people that are you know even just cutting corners but I would definitely not you know you know drawing contraband or forming relationships with the makes those kind of things are you cannot do that. You know the public trust you only have so much collateral with the public and and when you break the trust man especially nowadays with the social media and the keyboard warriors they're gonna attack you relentlessly and you know what in certain situations you deserve it uh but if you if you do the right thing all the time you can you can stand with a straight face and stand by your your staff when they when something goes wrong but everybody who did what they were supposed to do things bad things still happen. And but you be you can stand there and and our sheriff done it. He's he's like we've done nothing wrong here. So it's it's it's the standard has to be there though. Imagine trying to in that New Orleans situation and I hopefully they're they've turned it around would you imagine being the boss the sheriff there and and having to try to explain it and you know you can only go so far saying well I don't have enough funding I don't have this I don't have that okay yeah but it's still yours. So you know own it and and obviously talk about what you need and and obviously funding's a huge thing for everybody but you have to own it and and I mean that's maybe that's why she's not sheriff anymore. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Yeah. I want to I want to talk about two things with training. And the the first one I guess I'll start with when I when I go through your bio one of the things I notice about you and one of the things that impresses me is that you it looks like you've never quit learning. You keep going after accreditations and certifications and I don't know that a lot of just correctional officers know that there's more education out there besides what you're being given at work. Right. So tell me a little I know the AGA AJA is doing some of that what's out there what what can they be doing?

SPEAKER_01 31:37

So I well AJA is a great great first stop uh we our certifications are amazing I think I said in the last time I was with you uh one time and I said at my my swearing in speech at at in Fort Worth one time I saw a jail administrator position open in Texas uh I literally I I told my sheriff I had I had an indeed account set up and I set you know my my dream job in corrections at the dream rate of pay and then I'd look at it and see what their requirements were and I saw one of the this jail administrator in Texas. I didn't I never want to move to Texas. I love Texas but I never want to move there but they they said the position

Mentorship Safety And The Next Generation

SPEAKER_01 32:14

required a bachelor's degree but preferred someone with a master's degree or a certified jail manager from American Jail Association. So that jail administrator recognized the power and the strength of that that certification so I'm like well I need to make sure I maintain my CJM. I had other certifications that I let lapse but the CJM is definitely valued. I mean that and there's other across across the you know the the whole gamut uh of different organizations that have real quality ones but you know you gotta when you realize that you uh certain situations you you make sure you want to make sure it's worth your money and your time and your investment because even even CJMs in internal to AJA there are sometimes you're saying well why do I need to recertify? Why why can't I I've earned it and I'm still working well we need to make sure you're still growing and you're maintaining and you're you're keeping up with case law and you're keeping up with changes. So that's why we make you recertify. So if you can prove that you've gone to training and trained yourself, great. If you need to take the test again good we can we can do it that way too but there's short certifications. AJ offers a ton of training we've partnered with a bunch of groups online training is is there and it's getting better. I noticed I got an email from the National Institute of Corrections. They put out some really updated training that's completely free. So there are opportunities especially when you're you're struggling with with budget funds and stuff like that. I've had I've had the blessing of being able to attend a bunch of trainings. I mean I I still think the the pinnacle of all trainings the FBI National Academy what an absolute opportunity that was an honor to be there. Ten weeks was hard uh and I'll say being 10 weeks away from my wife and my kid and my daughter uh it was terrible it was I've never it but it was great because I came home and and uh we still love each other. So it's a great reminder that we actually did miss each other. So it actually improved our our relationship being gone that wrong. But I I'm actually and and I'm excited next next week I'm actually attending a Florida Department of Law Enforcement it's called the Chief Executive Seminar I got appointed to a state level committee that helps with their training the Florida Department of Law Enforcement's leadership training I had got to attend their executive leadership seminar and their senior leadership program which was two of the best programs I've been through and then going through the chief executive and and I was telling my sheriff this morning I'm leaving on Monday and I said this one's typically for sheriffs and chief deputies and I'm so for ones and twos I said and uh I'm technically tied for three so it's kind of a cool opportunity to be able to attend there. But I'm excited about that. Besides the AGA conferences, it's the first training a long time that I've attended instead of you know been part of so I'm excited it's first of three weeks and I'll be happy to come back and tell you about it.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

So excellent. Yeah no I saw the NIC stuff too and you know FEMA FEMA's got a bunch of free training. So if you're sitting out there and you're a correctional officer and you want to put something on your resume, you know, there's ways to do it. Which kind of leads to my second question. One of the things that's getting dropped off my opinion you tell me if you've seen something different is training. That's where we're saving money in those budgets and it's it's horrible that we're doing that. But I would like to see our staff, our supervisors get more comfortable with micro training get more comfortable with the training that a shift supervisor gives. You don't have to sit somebody in a room for eight hours to give them training you walk by them and you say where's that key go? You walk by them and say where's your fire extinguisher at you walk by them and say where's that inmate live those are all things that cause them to think about their surroundings, their job and it's things that they'll remember and you can do that every night one minute five minutes. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 36:10

What do you think I I hate the fact that training budgets are cut and that's and you know that's the easiest money to cut I guess that's something thankfully my organization does not allow. I mean we we fight for a training budget. And I and I honestly when our new staff are being sworn in and I say it in front of the rest of the command staff and right in front of the sheriff I say you know what if your goal is to promote if your goal is to stay here for a career in the jail make it hard for me to uh you know say no to you. So meet me halfway. If you want to be somewhere tell me and tell tell it tell your chain of command let this is here's your goals and let's let's set them. And I also tell them and and we have a full service law enforcement HC. So if their goal is to go to the law enforcement side give me two, three years, I'll train you. I'll let I'll and our our guys will teach you how to talk to people and you go out there and be one of the best street cops that they can have because you know we we know how to talk to people there. We know how to de you know lower conflict just by talking ourselves out of trouble. That's what I did. I got myself out of trouble with that but the the the concept of micro trainings is fantastic. I take every morning I get a Google alert that I get and I search key topics uh you know suicide escape those kind of things and guess what it's slapped full every single day lawsuits medical malpractice all you know all these different things and I always send I send it out to a group of people that I've collected emails from when they attended our trainings or I trained with them and become part of a they agree to it and and I send it to them and I I know you know you know Anthony Gang I know he takes my list and he sometimes makes posts out of it in the morning. So and but that's also I send it to our supervisors and I said this is the roll call training. There's an example of let's use somebody else's bad day to make sure that doesn't happen here and turning into a training. And oftentimes the sergeants are not doing it themselves and they're you know maybe the corporals are doing it but oftentimes if they assign it to a line staff who's not an FTO or who's not interested but make them a little uncomfortable and here you're gonna present this topic during roll call. And and sometimes it's policy reviews sometimes it's news articles and sometimes it's just hot topics. We just just had our trainings our training unit all of a sudden show up there in I got an email they're gonna be in roll calls they're gonna renew and talk about we we got a new style pro strength chair with strength hair so they wanted to to demonstrate it and turned in we did a rank and roll call. Again and I think you you hit it on the head I think some of those spontaneous drills in the middle of the shift you know make you uncomfortable but when it's all over you're you're you're better for it is no doubt there. Because I hate seeing just random you know I have a trash can fire next to the and we're gonna have a simple evacuation let's make it a little complicated. Let's make it fun you know and challenge it. And you don't even have to move the inmates you can you can pretend you're doing you can do like a tabletop if you want to but talk me through it. Tell me what you would do. And it's it's it but it is sad to think about that the first thing you're gonna cut is training because I I think I think sometimes I'm I'm a little too blessed of where we work but even where I came from it it was never a question. I mean our in-services high quality training and and and it's definitely something that shouldn't be cut but focused on absolutely there's definitely ways and on top of that I think to this minute one of the most important things anybody can do is is pursue just a higher education. I don't I don't care if it's a two year degree I tell people like what's the benefit because our our policy is you don't you get you yeah you get some points for promotional process but it doesn't mean anything necessarily if you're tied you're tied. But if somebody has a bachelor's degree and somebody doesn't and they're tied otherwise maybe that's a tiebreaker. That's what I tell them. Because my sheriff talks about all the time he calls it uh stick toitiveness it's proof especially if you're an adult learner and you're you're pursuing your degree while you're working and if you can get it done you know that that means your time management skills are solid your your writing skills are solid and it's a a good clue that I mean maybe not with AI now because it's you know on top of all the things I do I I also teach teach at a few colleges online and I teach ethics. What a beautiful what a that's a enthralling topic. But it's important right but it's it's amazing how some some of the these I call children coming out of high school that are that they just can't write and they know it's it's bad. And they're depending on that AI sometimes and it and they're not covering their tracks. It's terrible. Definitely you know AI is something that's we definitely have to harness and take advantage of because it's gonna really speed our jobs up and help us a lot. But don't depend on it. You got to be able to reason through things. So yeah it's I'm I'm pretty passionate about training and matter of fact we went to our law enforcement academy graduation last night and uh I reminded the captain of the academy it's like I wouldn't mind getting back in there because I I was definitely busy last year so I wouldn't mind getting back in just to start to teach with the recruits again. So teaching ethics m mostly communication believe or not so I mean I could I guess I could I should maybe use my degree for that.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Yeah ethics to me kind of goes right along the with the theme of your book because ethics is about all that little stuff. Yeah you're right you know um it ethics is rarely someone who just jumps over the line it it's always a slow creep yep it's a creep yep you're absolutely right it's so it's funny is that is I got that philosophy

Micro Training Ethics And Building Competence

SPEAKER_00 41:39

degree because of a good deal.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

I mean I'm I'm as a part of my I guess weird hobbies is I I like religion I like studying religion and and different religions and philosophy is something that I really picked up on I really kind of enjoy the stoics and and you know that that concept of you can only control yourself you can only only control your response to outward influences and and it's true. Once once I realized that I was like man I really relaxed a little bit I can't control what's going on I can just I can control my reaction to it. But that's it's the same concept you can control those things and those those minor things you can you can enforce that bunk being made the inmate wearing this ID where it's supposed to be worn. And make sure the place is clean and and and make sure if something breaks that it's addressed don't walk past the mess. It's you know not my job mentality doesn't fit where I work. Right. It's it's uh it's important and and those those small things are it's it's mind blowing to me and I was kind of alluding to it earlier. It's mind blowing to me what's happened though with with my book is I I'm shocked by where where they're being sold. So at this point as at this point today uh 62% of my books have been sold in the United Kingdom and I saw that yeah I I cannot believe it. And I've made two really good contacts over there via LinkedIn and that's another thing I'd recommend to correctional officers just get on LinkedIn it's a it's a live resume and make connections and that's a great way to network and get free training too there's great opportunities there too. But I've made two pretty solid connections and I'm excited to say that one of them was a former minister of prisons. He's he's actually done a uh a review of my book it's going to be published uh in September I'm excited about and I am really impressed with them and their their desire to because there's some real there's some real issues in their system they have real overcrowding issues and and some really troubling legislative issues and uh and the the system's trouble. And he's he told me what he said was uh this is the book that I wish I would have written myself and uh and that's that was a what a compliment that's pretty cool. Sure. So it's it's been every time I see a couple sell I'm like I don't know how many were in England. I mean I'm I'm telling six 60% I'm like this is amazing. But so so when I have if I if I get invited over there maybe you can come with me and you can help me translate so I can understand the language.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Absolutely let's uh let's do it uh 17% of my listenership is from UK awesome that's awesome it it one of the things this podcast taught me was that everywhere in the world someone is sitting in a broken chair watching an inmate uh because there's been 111 countries and territories I think Austral Australia is 9% of the listenership. So and I I had I had no thoughts about UK or Australia when I was working as a correctional officer you know didn't think they dealt with it but they they should Sure do. That's awesome. So tell me what your uh where are you headed?

SPEAKER_02 44:40

What's your I know you've got stuff in the works. Well, I mean, Sean. Uh the good news is I love what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

So I just hit my 29th year and long term. I would love the opportunity to do exactly what you were talking about is being able to help put my arm around somebody and offer insight, offer advice. If that's and in what form that is, while I'm working full-time for very, you know, very supportive sheriffs, gotta be you know be real smart about it. Don't want to ever take advantage of that because my primary job is obviously most important. But I I love this profession. I love everybody who who does the job, and I want to make sure that I'm not leaving anything I could offer behind. So I mean, I put that website up, uh, keeperskeysleadership.com, and that is where mostly where I could set my links to to buy the book. And if you buy straight from my publisher, it's a little cheaper than Amazon and Walmart and stuff like that. So but eventually I want to turn that into a consulting of some some some sort, most likely. Uh maybe, maybe a leadership development. It's like training. The book I think is gonna gain some traction too. I want to see if I can connect with some colleges, maybe you can, you know, spin them something that way. You know, I my problem is I'm I've always, you know, when I go to conferences, I'm not the guy going out with the the vendors to dinner. I I I want to make sure there's, you know, Caesar's Caesar's wife has to be on be beyond reproach, right? So um I definitely have a hard time marketing myself, it's sort of that way. And I'm not gonna cross the line to do it. Uh, but if something I can help anybody with, and that's the beauty of my current situation, is is my boss is very open to us helping. And that's that's that's awesome. And that's all I want to do. Eventually, it just makes sure I'm in a position where I can, you know, help the next generation or even the current generation get get to where they want to be. There's challenges every four years or every two years, better yet. Sheriffs change, you know, leadership changes, and uh there are there are you know, there's still jails in across the country that when a sheriff changes, they they they bring a friend in to run the jail because it's a spot. Well, that friend doesn't necessarily know anything about running jails, and that's a good way to get people hurt and get sued. And that's you know, there's a great opportunity there too. So you know, it's we we have to take care of ourselves and we have to make sure that you know we're helping each other because nobody knows everything. Uh, but it together we can we could probably figure out a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

Do you think we'll ever get national standards for the county level? Or is the fact that we've got 50 states and 50 counties in every state, is that just too much to overcome? You know, policing has a lot of standards that you go from one place to the other. It's fairly generally close. But I know you've seen it traveling. I talked to a guy two years ago who gave a day and a half of training to his last employee, and then he went to work. And then you go over here to California and they're full-time peace officers, and they go through a full academy. Are we ever going to be able to do anything with that? Do you think?

SPEAKER_01 47:43

That was something we were working on last year, and we're still working on this year. We have meetings coming up. Uh, one of my good friends uh on the AJA board uh is Jeff Begg. He's a captain in Ohio, Stark County, and and he's in charge of the national guidelines subcommittee or committee that we're trying to try to figure out.

unknown 48:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

And that's hard. There's, you know, think about there's I think there's 23 states in the country that don't have jail standards, minimum jail standards. And of the ones that do have them, you know, Florida, Texas, uh, California, they're mandatory. Not all of them are. Some of them are just samples and examples and you know, guidelines. Ours are are, you know, are jail standards. You have to. And and I mean, they're the basic standards, so they're designed for the smallest and poorest of counties to be able to pass, right? So but I see some really big counties that struggle with it sometimes year to year. Is it possible? I don't know. We've we've AJ has talked to the National Institute of Corrections, and they've talked about helping us figure something out because if it's gonna come from if it's gonna be national, then maybe that that at least funding source could be beneficial.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

But I mentioned earlier, talking about the NIJO and Tate McCotter and his team. You know, their concept is probably the best. It's definitely not, you know, it's not minimum. It's uh it's it's legal, right? So we we want to make sure we're doing what's right. And uh it's not it's not always easy and it's not always cheap to do what's right. A lot of jurisdictions struggle with those kind of funds and being able to comply with these things a lot and too often the jail's an afterthought. And that that afternoon's gonna it's gonna cost lives, it costs a lot of money if you're not really paying attention. So I would love it. I would love to find a way to establish those minimums. But it's we had the conversation just a couple days ago. It's really not, it's hard. There, I mean, there's great models, there are great examples, and you but you need probably leadership in every single state and every every jurisdiction to do so. All the way down to academies, like you said. You know, our our corrections academy is just over three months long. And

National Standards Future Plans And Final Advice

SPEAKER_01 49:44

uh it's perfect. I think it's perfect, but anything is better than nothing. A day and a half, maybe not. Maybe it should be a little bit longer than that. Uh but AJ is working on that too. We're trying to figure out just even just minimum like extent. Obviously, the high liability stuff you'd have to do to require meet your state requirements.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

But if we just talk about, you know, interpersonal skills and and general, I guess, high-level law, and and it we'd love to come up with something. And because yeah, even on an online platform, at this point, you can get a full doctorate degree without setting foot in a classroom. So I think we could talk some of the general subjects for academy stuff online. There's nothing nothing wrong with that. But you definitely have to have that component, hands-on component. Because it's a little different when you're, you know, you're going in that and the door slamming behind you for the first time and you don't know who your FTO is, don't know where the bathrooms are, so it's a little intimidating, but it's definitely definitely something we're working on.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

Cool. Cool. Yeah, it's just it's a there's a little dream out there. I I would love to see everybody getting, you know, a little bit of the good that is, you know. So let me ask you a question off the off the cuff. If a correctional officer asked you today, and they wanted to make their facility, and this kind of goes towards your book, wanted to make their facility 1% better, what's the first thing you think they should do?

SPEAKER_02 51:06

See, correct like a line level officer. Yeah, line level officer.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

What can they do to make their facility better today?

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Set the example, set the tone. I mean, set the tone simply. This may sound silly, but set the tone by walking in the door with a sharp press uniform and high-polis shoes, and and you know, be locked in. Be absolutely locked in. Uh, and you gotta set the tone for yourself first. And when you emulate that and you start, you show up as the example, then maybe that example starts to spread.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

So I mean culture doesn't always start at the top.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

No, and I'll tell you, historically, we when we took over in 2010, uh I I put together or we put together a team from all across the state of Florida, from the Department of Corrections, from different county jails, to we hired a bunch of people from the jail that we to were taking over from CCA at the time. And it was hard because it was a group of people that never worked together, that that were coming from different cultures, different styles. And it took, I would tell you, it probably took a good 10 years before we could actually say, I could say, at least we have a Hernando way now, right?

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Six six years later, it's it's even better. And we are we are probably the best we've ever been locked in. And and the from from me down to the newest guy, they know the standards are we're gonna keep this place clean, it's gonna be quiet, we're gonna maintain, we're gonna get the MAC what they need and what they they have to have, and and we're gonna we're gonna be human about it, you know? And it took a long time. I mean, we had some real bumps in the road at first, but you you're right, culture, it's it's like it's like turning a battleship with a spoon. It takes a long time, right? Yeah, so but if but that's what you need. If the line level officer says, How how can I make this place better? That's the guy you want to look at as a leader. I mean, if you're in leadership, say, how can I make this place better? Well, let's find out. You tell me. What do you think? Right? That's right. And then just give them the tools. And and if that means, you know, sitting down and look at the look at this training offer this this certifications, or simply read these books. I mean, I have a I'm sure you do too. You have a I'm sure you have a library in of all the books you've read and and some you've written, and and that you would recommend to people to. I mean, I learned a lot from just simply, you know, they what they say, leaders or readers, uh, take advantage of it. And and then if but if those people are asking those kind of questions, those are the ones you want to to engage with and keep them engaged. Because if they can't find that that that level of improvement, they're gonna find uh probably a different place of employment, is what they're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Yeah. Well, I can't walk away from that plug because if you go to www.theprison officer.com, up at the top there's a link that says correctional leadership books. You can go there and support the podcast by buying your Amazon books through there. But uh Sean, thank you, and congratulations on the new book. Tell everybody if they want to get a hold of you, what's the best way, and uh how do they get your book?

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Yeah, so I mean the easiest way is the the website's uh keepertheesleadership.com. Uh there's a couple links on there just uh for the book if that's the case. And probably the easiest way still to get a hold of me email-wise would be Sean K at AJA.org. Sean K at AJA.org. That's just a lot easier to spell than you know my full name. Um, but actually, the probably the easiest way is LinkedIn. So connect with me on LinkedIn. Uh I have way too many people on that. I mean, I have like 8,500 connections on LinkedIn. I know like 10 of them. I'm just kidding. I'm a little more than 10. But uh that's probably my favorite avenue. Honestly, that that that place is a it's a it's a good place to connect. And I I highly encourage anybody who's not on LinkedIn, just it's a like I said, it's a live a live resume. So as you go to training and as you you promote and as you do different things, just update your your LinkedIn account. And and people are looking, people are watching, and and there's great ways to connect there.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

So yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Keep up the good work. I'm I'm uh always excited about all the stuff you're involved in and the stuff you do for our profession. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

I appreciate it. Thanks for having me again. Look forward to the next time.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Absolutely. We'll see you. Thanks.