127: The Case For Andy’s Law And Safer Prisons - Interview w/Jeff Noble

A correctional officer gets assaulted at work and someone shrugs it off as “part of the job.” That mindset is poisoning recruitment, accelerating burnout, and making prisons more dangerous for everyone inside. We sit down with Jeffrey Noble, a 39-year corrections professional who rose from correctional officer to warden and later worked inside Ohio’s legislative oversight world, to explain why Andy’s Law is gaining traction and what it tries to fix.

We start with the case that shaped the bill: the Christmas Day 2024 killing of Officer Andy Lansing at Ross Correctional Institution. From there, we dig into prison safety and accountability reforms that go beyond slogans, including treating spitting and feces assaults like the criminal acts they are, strengthening penalties when staff are murdered, and keeping people who commit serious violence in higher security longer. Jeff explains why behavior-based classification matters when agencies feel pressure to “push custody down” to solve bed-space problems.

We also get specific about modern security risks: contraband and illegal conveyance, fentanyl exposure, the lack of detention authority when a visitor is caught bringing drugs, and why reliable K9 access can’t be a once-in-a-while luxury, and why leadership qualifications should be based on real corrections experience, not politics.

If you care about correctional officer safety, prison reform legislation that targets misconduct, and practical ways to reduce contraband and violence, listen now, share this with a coworker, and leave a review so more people find the conversation.

Jeff Noble email: ashleymatthew2000@yahoo.com

Ohio Senator Nathan Manning  

614-644-7613 

ohiosenate.gov/nathan-h-manning

Aide's email: lindsay.murch@ohiosenate.gov

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:34

In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of the pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. With the ability to transition quickly from area saturation to direct impact with the non-lethal Pava projectiles, Pepperball provides me with a range of non-lethal options for cell extractions involving noncompliant inmates, and when the use of force is over, decontamination is easy with no oily residue on the walls or floors. To learn more about Pepperball, go to www.pepperball.com or click the show notes below. Pepperball is the safer option first. Hey guys, thank you. Welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. I'm glad to have you here. Before we get going, I just want to mention one of the new things. If you want more from this podcast, if you want to see more behind the scenes, if you want to uh hear more from the articles and stuff that I write, uh check out in the notes behind the wall. It's a new thing that started with the Prison Officer Podcast where we have a little more conversation. I really enjoy some of the people that have jumped in there. I've got Trey and Ivan, Kathy, James, a lot of you have jumped in there and got this conversation started, so I'm happy about that. And as always, I want to mention Pepperball. You know, Pepperball's been a sponsor of the Prison Officer Podcast for a really long time, and uh we appreciate them and what they do. And uh now let's get on with the show. Uh today it's uh you know, it's gonna be kind of a different thing than what I've done. I've never really got into politics too much, but this is so important, I think, uh, that it's not politics, it's legislation, even though we we depend on our politicians sometimes to do this for us. But I've brought in a gentleman named Jeffrey Noble, and he's a longtime a warden, administrator. He's got 39 years of experience in corrections and public safety. He was started on, he was a correctional officer, he was a case manager, unit manager, legit uh legislative chief analyst, uh deputy warden, warden. He's he's done it all the way from the bottom to the top through the ranks, and he's one of the people who's pushing to get this law that we're going to talk about. Right now he's uh working as a certified PRIA auditor, ACA auditor. He's been a delegate on an international corrections exchange with Moldova, uh, where they collaborated on strategies to advance global security and real rehabilitation standards. He also serves as a criminal justice instructor at Sinclair and Southern State Community College to bring in theory to practice to prepare the next generation, so important, of leaders into corrections. So welcome to the Prison Officer Podcast, Jeff. I'm I'm glad to have you on here.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Thank you for taking your time.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Oh, absolutely. Before we get started into the subject today, tell me a little bit about your career. How'd you get into corrections?

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Well, in 1986, uh I started as a actually a youth leader. I worked there part-time while I was going to college. Uh, got hired as a correctional officer at the end of 1986, worked at Pickaway Correctional Institution as an officer, got promoted to a case manager there. So I spent eight years at Pickaway at that time. Uh moved over as a case manager to Madison Correctional Institution. My boss, he went over there as a deputy warden, kind of coaxed me into coming over there. These are all in Ohio, right? Yes. Okay. Yes, in Ohio. And was a case manager and a unit manager at that facility for six years. And that was uh again, Pickaway was a level one and two, which in Ohio that's level one being the lowest, level five being the highest, that's a supermax. Right. Moved over to Madison, it was a level three. I said worked there for six years, went back to Pickaway as what they call a unit management administrator. That's over the unit management, did that for five years, got promoted to the warden's assistant there for two years, went to London as a deputy warden and was kind of all the deputy warden's administration, special services and operations for nine years, got promoted to a warden there, was there about a year and a half, and that's a level one and two, and got moved over across the street. Madison's right across the street from from London. Okay. So got moved over there as a warden, was there for about two and a half years. And at that point I was 34 years in the system. So I thought, uh, it might be time to and I got offered a job with the state legislature in Ohio. That they have what they call the Correctional Inspection Committee, which oversees the prisons, like goes on tours, writes reports for state legislators. They've since defunded that and moved it to another agency, so I'm out of that. But I was doing that for five years as a deputy director of that. So that that got me, I seen every prison in a high adult and juvenile. We we toured every one of them. So that got me a you know a lot more experience as far as seeing different things, different prisons, how they do things.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

So you went right into corrections out of college.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah. Uh yeah, actually I went to high university and uh was looking for a job, was getting to the end of the line, and they offered me, and I think everybody in corrections, you get into it, you're like, ah, I'll get into this and maybe get out of it in a few years, but I stayed in it for 39 years.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

So that's what I was gonna ask you. So what kept you in corrections for 39 years?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

There's a lot of things. Uh I think we've talked in before. There's not any better people than corrections people. I mean, I'm kind of biased. You know what I mean? But the reality is some of my closest friends I worked with and they've been friends throughout my career. And it's challenging. You know as well as I do facilities. I mean, I I worked again, level ones and twos, threes and fours. They're two different types of facilities. Sure. Internally, you learn a lot from just a different I mean, ones and twos are mindsets, more rehabilitation. Actually, they probably are not coming, a lot of them's not coming back, or threes and fours are just your your criminals. Uh that are more struggling. Another thing I learned at London, uh, we had a big farm and we had a big uh it's crazy how prisons we had a big water treatment plant and a sewage plant. I learned more about water treatment and sewage. You would think that's not, but we supplied, you know, like 9,000 people of water and sewage, so you learn more about lift stations and clarification. So that was educational. And obviously the farm had 3,000 acres at a big dairy farm.

SPEAKER_05 7:40

So uh and I grew up grandfather was a farmer, so not quite that scale.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Uh I kind of knew how to drive tractors and how to bell hay, and you know what I mean, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Absolutely. So is Ohio still doing some of that? Do they still have the farms?

SPEAKER_01 7:59

No, they they files deputy warden, that's a sore spot with a lot of people. Yeah. They phased them out. Now they basically cash rent all their properties. And the issue with that, I can tell you, you know, people get upset, but I'm sure your audience, it got harder and harder to place people outside the fence because I mean community corrections facilities have done a pretty good job of diverting low-level offenders to the counties here in Ohio. So most of the guys that come to us have violated probation, which kind of rules you out of working outside the fence. Uh, you up to 100 C provision, you didn't report to your pro officer. So that made it very difficult to get people out. And Ohio is historically an agricultural community. It's changed a lot because you know, bigger farms produce much much uh you know, more stuff. It it was a great experience when I first started. I mean, I always said that the farms teach a guy work ethic. Absolutely. And that's what uh we do miss because uh London was the biggest prison farm in the state of Ohio, and guys worked.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah, I mean Missouri was so we had the same thing in Missouri, you know. Matter of fact, there for a long time, Missouri took care of itself almost as far as corrections. We had a uh Rennes farm that did vegetables, I think Algoa did beef. Uh, you had church farm that did dairy, and you know, so they kind of took care of their self. And I did see, just like you said, the work ethic. One one thing about living and growing up on a farm, I know the same thing you do. I was I was around farms my whole life. You learn work ethic, you know, you learn what it's like to get up in the morning. You can't let the animals wait. Uh there's no sleeping in today and that kind of stuff. So I think we're gonna miss that. But I understand what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah, my grandfather always said if you're lazy, it's not gonna be my fault.

SPEAKER_05 9:55

Right. So he's tell me my brother's at.

The Death That Sparked Andy’s Law

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about uh what you've been very passionate about, what you've been working with for a while, and that is Andy's Law. Can you kind of walk me through what led up to that, you know, the incident, and I'll let you talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Okay. Andy's law kind of came into play um on Christmas Day, 2020, at Ross Correctional Institution. That's uh in South Central Ohio, Coffee, Ohio. Andy Lansing was a 62-year-old correctional officer. He was working overtime that day for Christmas.

SPEAKER_05 10:41

He was beaten and killed by an inmate at the Ross Correctional that day.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

I mean, a side note, uh met Andy one time, great guy. He was in the military. He served over in Iraq, he went over the uh prison delegation, served in the military, came back and I mean, he had a break in service. He worked for the Department of Corrections, went over there for a while, came back, and he worked worked, he was in the military prior. That day he was working, you know. Side note, was he was working overtime as a kid's going to college to be a pharmacist.

SPEAKER_06 11:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

And he was working overtime to help pay for his college, and uh he was about three years from retirement. So shout out to Mark Johnson. I mean, he's a state representative here in Ohio. Great guy. And you know, you say stuff about politicians, he answers a bell, and he called me that that day and wanted me to go down because we mentioned earlier prison people have a slang. And as a representative, he didn't understand what they were complaining about. A lot of times he wasn't somebody, which in my job, that's what I did. So we went down, uh, you know, talked to people, tried to get a better handle on what was going on, and it took off from there. A lot of staff were complaining about issues, me seeing all the prisons. There's a need to address the issues in a high.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

What were some of those issues?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

I mean, some of them, you know, are not related to uh the prison management, but just I'm sure you prisoners, when I started spitting on officers or throwing feces on officers, was very un uh was not right. That's a common practice now.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Uh so that that's an issue.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

When I started, there were there were consequences to that. That's that's why it didn't quite happen as much back then.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Well, we talked about that. Um in in the past, I mean, I remember working in segregation. I was an officer. That happened very seldom, but if it did, you're looking at higher security for sure, and you're looking at what we call local control 180 days, and that's gone away. You know, they don't they don't the the accountability is just not there like it used to be.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

I've heard people say, well, that's part of the job. I've literally heard people say that, and it's not part of the job. And anybody that's listening that thinks it's part of the job, I I challenge you to go to, I guess I shouldn't say this because somebody will do it and then try to sue me. But walk into the mall and spit on a police officer. That's an assault. And in our correctional facilities, that's not treated as an assault most of the time. That's treated as part of the job. Getting slimed, getting stuff thrown on you. Oh, well, you work in prison. That's part of the job. And it never should be thought of as part of the job. We have a lot of prosecutors that won't prosecute it across the nation.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

We have a mixed bag, and and the the part of this law was to clear that miss because there are prosecutors to defend some. Um they prosecute uh to give you an example. I I was a warden at Madison, London, which is Madison County. That county took every case. Good. And it's not a rich county, that but that prosecutor uh uh, you know, basically uh took every case. And it was a uh how would you say it was challenging for the county because they're not a rich county, so they they don't have a lot of money in the coffers. And then there's others that, like you said, that'll go, you know, uh and not, I mean, and it's gotten worse. I mean, just in the last month, there was an officer or one of our youth centers, they've got feces on two days.

unknown 14:24

Yeah.

Stronger Charges And Behavior-Based Custody

SPEAKER_01 14:24

You're a new officer. You know as well as I do. That officer's not going to be there. That's what I tell legislators. And similar to what you said, we were just meeting with the senator last week and we were talking about his aides, and uh we were talking about it, and they're you're they're like, Well, you know, how big a deal is it? I said, Well, if somebody came here and do feces on you, would you keep coming to work or or would you start looking for another job? Sure. And that's what's happening in corrections. They're they're not griping, they're they're um they're and that's a traumatic event. So that's something that that's in that law. And obviously, uh in Ohio, the situation with Lansing, that guy is subject to he could be tried for the death penalty here. Uh, but we wanted to stiffen that murder charge up to a minimum of, you know, life without parole, which uh make sure uh the guy that killed Andy Lansing or at least was accused of his trial has not been I don't want to talk a lot about it, but uh it it's not it's in the process of still working itself out. So he he could be subject to the death penalty. We just wanted to add to that aggravated murder charge a mandatory life without parole if he is found in at least 10 years at a higher security facility. Right. That's and that's one issue that has been a problem.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Well, and a lot of people let's talk about that for a second because a lot of people listening won't understand why that's so important. These days, the the push is, especially in the last several years, the push is to get offenders pushed down in custody as quick as possible. The uh Second Chance Act has a lot of that in it. They're trying to get the offender pushed down into lower custody. So, and I've seen it and you've seen it. Well, we need more inmates over here, so we'll just drop their custody and push them out of the way. What you're talking about is that's gonna someone who's done something as as heinous and as violent as attack a correctional officer or correctional staff is gonna stay where they belong in a maximum security prison for at least 10 years before they ever have a chance to come down in custody, correct?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yes. And it you hit it on the head in Ohio, again, our classification system, every inmates were viewed once a year for uh an upgrade, downgrade. It's got to the point where they're looking at numbers, not behavior. Right. Part of this bill, we've been stressing this is a behavior-based. If you need more beds at level three, that's what you create. Because reality is it's behavior-based. Uh and and in Ohio, and I'm sure everywhere, there has been a push to deal with. I mean, we we currently got people probably should be level threes at level twos.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

We got uh people at level threes should be level fours. Uh, I would argue this guy that uh was involved with Andy Lansing probably should have been a four prior to, you know, uh the situation happening.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

So he's had a past history of violence.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah, yes. I mean he's in for fluence assault.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

And and I'll add, I mean, I was reading read a newspaper where his uncle said he was violent. So I don't know about you. That that's enough for me. I mean, when your immediate family says, hey, this doesn't surprise me. Sure. Sure. Pretty much answered. But that's part of the bill.

SPEAKER_05 17:50

You know, life without pearl, the higher security.

Exposure Crimes And Sex Offender Accountability

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Another thing, you know, exposures. We got more female staff. And exposures like you mentioned earlier, basically uh a lot of them are just treated as a rule infraction. I mean, that's a that's a felony. And uh give you an example, we had one guy expose himself 164 times at one of our higher security facilities to women. And my job as CIC, we'd go around and talk to people, and obviously they were concerned about that. And again, staffing issues, that relates to they leave if you don't do nothing nothing about it. Who who signs up for that? We put that in the bill.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah. The uh in the Bureau of Prisons, there was a group of female officers who got together and and sued the agency and won because they weren't being protected. You know, once again, if you're out on the street, someone's exposing themselves to you, that's a crime. And then when you come work inside, all of a sudden they say, Oh no, you're supposed to put up with that. There's no no reason a female officer should ever have to put up with that. They should be treated the same as any other officer, and they should be treated the same as any woman outside just because an inmate wants to get his jollies or whatever goes on there, you know. Our officers shouldn't be forced to put up with that as part of the job. There should be consequences to that.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Yeah, and we've stressed that with legislators. Somebody come up here and drop their pants in their office, that that guy would go to the county jail and be charged. Yeah. You know, we expect the same treatment for female creational officers and correctional staff. I mean, they should be out on the same standard. So that's that's that's an issue. Now, that's something controversial on the bill is to create like a sex offender registration registry for those people to expose because uh I'm sure you're you you're you all talk about, I mean, a lot of people talk about re-entry and stuff like that. The community should know these people are committing these felonies prior to moving in beside you. I mean, uh I mean, like I mentioned off the air, I got a granddaughter that I don't I'd like to know if somebody moves in beside my daughter uh that that presents issues like this, following his behavior, uh, because they're at risk.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

They are sex offenders. I mean, there's there's no other way to look at it. They are sex offenders. Let's label them as such. Let's let it affect their placement too inside the prison. Sex offenders have points in different, I don't know how Ohio does it specifically, but when you're doing classification, sex offender and continuing to do that behavior should uh put you in higher level security places, should limit you from certain areas. So absolutely they need to be called sex offenders for what they are.

Contraband Detention Authority And K9 Access

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, because they're I mean, I I mean, my background, I was a unit manager over the sex offender unit in the state of Ohio, so it manifests itself. I mean, that that behavior doesn't go away. And if you, how would you say, condone it by not doing nothing, you're gonna get more of it? Sure, you're gonna give them permission to do it. Yep. Yeah, so that that's that's an issue. Another thing was illegal conveyance, because there are there are concerns with legal conveyance and the facilities. Currently in the state of Ohio, this law would allow, which I don't know in your your background, we don't have detaining authority. Which that creates a problem. If somebody comes in, if they take off, say a visitor comes in and has drugs, if they leave, uh the RNC doesn't really have detain, and and uh currently the state patrol has to be there, which they're out on the road. Sometimes, you know, these are rural areas, so uh they may take them 30 minutes to get there, and the person leaves, you can't really detain them, so that's part of the deal.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Well, give the listener an example of why that's so important.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Well, if a guy comes in, say a visitor comes in and has fentanyl on them, uh, they try to go through the metal detector uh and entry and the officer catches them, they have to have the authority, at least the captains and the supervisors there, to detain that person. So when a state police comes, they can arrest them and take them to the county jail. And like I said, when I was in Mass County, they'll they'll go to the county jail.

SPEAKER_04 22:13

Yeah.

Protecting Families After Line-Of-Duty Deaths

SPEAKER_01 22:14

They'll put them in jail. So that's part of the deal. Other part is to start having trained dogs. We have trained dogs and D R and C, but they're used sporadically, and you know how that goes. It's a hit and miss proposition sometimes. And we give you an example. When I was a warden at the level three and four and five facility. We didn't have dogs at that time, so we relied on state patrol. Well, they're out on a they're out on the road. We'd call for one and sometimes they'd make it, sometimes they wouldn't. You know, and that's not to their buttons. So that part of this law is a mandate that all the level three and fours have a trained dog on site to handle that situation. Right. So that's and then conveyance would it would apply to anybody. That would be staff, inmates, volunteers, contractors, uh, and that would make out a felony to bring that stuff in. Okay. Increase that felony. So that's uh one part of the law. Another thing, kind of go back to it, which Ohio, and I don't blame administrators, uh, but when Andy Lansing passed away, uh in Ohio, your your medical insurance is treated like you separate from. So it's like I'm sure you retired from the prison system. I did. You get a you know, a a uh call of thing where you can continue your insurance. He got the s his family got the same thing five days after he died on the job, which is very alarming to us. And frustrating. Uh, you know, I tell legislators, just take it out of my check. You know what I mean? Or or or you know, I'm sure correct means people wouldn't, if you're that pressed for money, that they wouldn't uh be willing to donate to that. But but reality is she didn't get that. She found out she went to her doctor to get a prescription filled. She obviously has an anxiety issues and stress from him dying, and they said your insurance is no good anymore. Unbelievable. Private or yeah, private organizations took up her insurance, but she our stances she shouldn't have to beg and plead. That that that's part of the we protect ourselves and protect our own. Right. And something like that. So that's that's part of the the law, too, is make that codified in the law where that that standard happens.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Absolutely. And I see where it says medical, dental, and vision insurance. That taking care of I can't imagine what she was going through within those five days, and then you're before you even have a chance to get things lined out, before you even have a chance to, you know, think about how you feel. Here's already everything that you had in your life, the the money, the insurance, all that stuff being taken away from you. Bam. You know, that's just we we need to take care of care take care of the families as the families go through as much with a correctional officer who works in corrections. It's a stressful job for families, also. We can't forget that because I know I brought it home for 30 years. You can ask my family. They didn't they weren't immune to what I went through and the stresses that I brought home and the way I acted sometimes. You know, I wasn't perfect. And we've got to take care of our families as much as we do the officers. So I'm happy to see that there's something in there specifically for the families to make sure that they're still being taken care of.

Staffing Burnout Mandates And Retention

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah, because uh I mean I was blessed. I never had to deal with a murderer of a staff member as a warden or deputy warden, but I did have some uh serious injuries because it we worked at high security. I had to give you an example, I had a guy get his orbital socket fractured. Yeah. It's burned in my brain. I I went, I'm sure you know, crest and stuff always happens on a Friday night. So went to the hospital and had to look at this guy's little girl and little boy and his wife, and um that burns in your brain. You know what I mean? Like uh you you have to take care of these people. And and I don't think that's intentional by DRNC or the state, but we just want written codified in the law where it basically s says you're gonna do it. So when they change administrations, there's no confusion and they don't have to go through what it gets back to this guy. Well, look, he served in the military, so kind of a you know, you back them and you back Cretchens people. We have to, we have to fix that. And that's that's part of that. Now, I don't know how else you want to I mean we we have got some administrative changes because obviously prisons have gotten gotten off, and we've talked at least my experience, they've gotten off the beaten track. This rehabilitation at all costs. And that's not totally true.

SPEAKER_06 27:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

I mean, this bill is not an anti-inmate bill, it's an anti-misbehavior bill. Uh you know, uh, if you misbehave, you're gonna be dealt with. And that falls into because Ohio's uh I mean it's put this way, when I was a warden, if you were 7% vacancy rate, you were worried to death. Uh I mean most of them are running over 10%, and that's that's how I say that's um I don't want to say be disrespectful, but that's kind of cooking the books because if you work in corrections, you know, you you're not counting the people on disability, you're not counting the people that are in training, you're uh they're counting uh a person's got a hire data at the academy. That's not helping that officer on the block to get days off and uh you know not work over time. So that's something that uh we think would help with internal work.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Well, I I I train nationwide. I I travel all over the country and and I'm telling you right now, corrections is burnt out. I'm not talking about one officer. I'm not talking about a couple of officers at this joint. I'm talking about corrections is burnt out. They are working so much, so often, uh, they're not getting the breaks, they're not getting relief, they've got vacation and comp time on the books that they can't use. Uh so yeah, anything we can do to make that better, uh, to try to get, which I mean, that's a lot of what we do on this program is talk about the leadership and the training because throwing money is not going to get you more officers. They've got to, just like this, they've got to feel safe when they go to work. They've got to feel respected. And I think that's a lot of what this law is about, don't you?

No-Contact Visits At Higher Security

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Yeah, well, there's a lot of, I mean, I uh like I said, I talk to uh a lot, and and to get back to your point, I mean, I when I went around to all the prisons, you know, uh it's alarming when you have a 28-year employee begging you to do something because they're getting mandated. They're not signed up for that. I don't know about you. I I'm I'm an older guy. They mandate me three days in a row. I probably, for one, I'm not gonna be worth the uh I'm gonna be a sub-par staff member because I'm tired. And again, the quality of life. Um, I mean, give you an example. The guy I'm bringing his son got into it. He got out of it basically because the place, the jukedown place, is so volatile that he's got a little kid. He didn't want to be on disability and lose 30% of his pay. So he just got out of corrections, which uh, you know, that's what we're doing, that's what's happening. And that's everywhere. So yeah, people's got to wake up. It's just not the money. No. I mean, money's good. Uh, I do think they can make some modifications. I'm sure you, your audience can relate. Retirement, they've ate away at retirement. Like when I first started 30 years and out, and you got medical benefits. Now it's you got to do basically 35 or 55, and you don't get your medical benefits. So basically, people are just voting with their feet. They're going to Amazon, they're going to somewhere else, and we're losing quality people uh because of that. Um, to keep on this law, I don't know what else you want to. I mean, we'll talk about security reforms. Now, this has been controversial on a high, and I don't know where ever statewide or nationwide, we're saying go to no contact visiting at level three, four, and five. Because if you've ever worked in prisons, again, the people at level three, four, and five are there for misbehave. If they do stay out of trouble, they have access to drop their security level down. And I'm sure you know you worked in prisons and your audience worked in prisons. There's a lot of lifers at level twos that are well behaved. They've dropped down based on their behavior in prison. Prison minister, I'd take them guys every day of the week because they're they're pretty well behaved. And but then there's others that all they do is create chaos. Right. And they have to be addressed. And and to talk to an officer at one of the high higher security places, he basically told me everybody comes to visit here or bringing drugs in.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:33

And you know, I mean, uh, that's the reason they're here. And I can relate as a warden and administrator.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Level threes and fours, you're constantly busting people, bringing stuff in. Level ones and twos, a lot of times you got to know that because like London, uh, the entry was everybody would come in the entry. You got, you know, it was there ten years, you got to know visitors, and actually you can tell them they're canceled that day and they would never be in grief. They're there to do the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Yeah. That's something. Well, technology's made that easier too, because we can do video visits now.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

We don't have to have jails in Ohio basically do that. They have no contact visiting. They basically you do the video visit or you have a screen, you know, window screen, and you do that. Now something else is controversial a little bit in Ohio that's in his bills, we're restricting the tablets.

SPEAKER_05 32:30

Inmate tablets. Personal tablets.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

I don't know if uh that's every uh state's doing that yet, but in Ohio, every inmate gets a personal tablet.

SPEAKER_06 32:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

And that's a double-edged sword. The administrator, somebody's working the units a lot. Uh it does, it's kind of we talked about yesterday a little bit, the TVs, it serves as a pacifier and and keeps them uh out of the day rooms and keeps them constructively busy. Uh, we say eliminate personal tablets at level three, four, and five.

SPEAKER_05 33:05

Again, it's based on behavior. Reality is uh they're what they call jailbreaking them.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

I don't know if you're familiar with that, you probably heard that uh a few times, but what they'll do is they'll get a uh uh a cell phone in, get a hotspot developed, break that tab, but and basically got free reign. Ohio, we just had a big case out of Muskingham County. It was the biggest uh contraband case in the prisons I've ever seen in my 39 years. They were actually dropping stuff in the yard and relaying the grid coordinates to to other inmates. Yeah, and dropping away directional. Yeah. So just think how dangerous that is and how problematic uh you're talking fentanyl, uh cell phones, uh, tune, K2s, uh uh major deal right now, which created chaos in that. And and our frustration of that is they've taken it to the point where, you know, they take them to segregation. And if you talk to administrators and people, they just break these tablets level three and four, and the state ends up, you know, author becomes a tablet manager, which is not what they're supposed to be doing. They're supposed to be providing security and making sure things get done. So that's something. And at level one and two, we're comfortable with and my background, we had them before I left. Ones and twos, most of those guys, they don't give you any problems with them. You know, they use them approving. Now there's a few, you know, that that do. Some of the older guys actually wouldn't even take them, they didn't even want the responsibility because they wasn't going to use them. You know what I mean? We're we're all right with that, but focus on that perspective.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Right. So where's the pushback coming from? You said it's not popular. Who's pushing back on this?

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Well, I I don't know. We're talking to legislators, I mean some administrators, you know, it's one of those things if I mean I've been out since 2019 out of joint. If you don't know what you what it was like before, you don't know, you know, a lot of administrators are getting into they've never had uh managed a prison without tablets, so that's one thing. And some of the providers, obviously, it's a moneymaker for them. Absolutely. But you know, it creates a big problem, especially if you gel break, because you can monitor those phones, but the the increased volume of the the calls plus um you know um just the access makes it harder for investigators to nail that down. I don't know if you've been following us following in Tennessee. They they they basically said that was part of the deal with that Ulcer getting. I don't know if you've seen that articles on that. Uh Ulster was recently murdered in Tennessee. Uh I guess some inmates have made threats via phone, but they didn't catch him because of the volume of them calls. Which, you know, in Ohio, most of the time you have two uh one investigator and a uh a gang coordinator's part-time basically investigate and they're going to go through 2,400 inmates' calls that makes 10 or 20 calls a day. There's not enough time in a day. So that's that's an issue. And we're saying just base that on behavior and to um eliminate them at level three and four because we used to put them on the walls, and guys got access to them, and like you said, they got video visits, got access to that. It's just not in their cells, and it's harder for them to manipulate them for bad behavior.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yeah, uh, communication people don't realize. Communication outside the prison is such a security problem for us. Last year, Idaho inmate was he coordinated an outside assault on a medical trip. He told them when he was going to go out because he faked an injury. He told them how they were gonna be armed, where they which hospital, and so they assaulted the crew when they got to the hospital. And that was all coordinated over phones that had been, you know, illegal phones, cell phones had been dropped in the prison. People think, oh, well, well, they're just making calls. No, they're running businesses, they're putting hits on people outside the prison, they're they're making drug deals, they're doing drone drops, uh, everything you can imagine. All that illegal activity is because of these illegal cell phones inside, and tablets can do the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Yeah, because it like I said, you can jailbreak them and basically get a Wi-Fi connection. And they're just like me and you called, made a call yesterday. I mean, it's not, it's not, I know the federal government's working on how to reduce that, but at the same time. No, and and you know, like you said, and there's another case. I remember in South Carolina where they made a threat via the the phones and tablets. It's a risk, and again, it gets back to attrition. Who wants to sign up for that? Right. You know what I mean? Who wants to work in a job that they can uh you're going out for transport? How many times you I never thought of that. I used to go on transports. I never thought that they're going to notify somebody. I mean, obviously you're always on your P's and Q's when you took somebody on a local hospital, but at the same time, you didn't expect it to be uh pre-arranged and puts people at risk, and that eats away at the staffing. They're like, hey, this I'm not I didn't sign up for this. And we've had people, you know, get threats like I mean hack on a Facebook. I had a situation before I retired that uh an officer didn't do nothing inappropriately, but inmate found her on Facebook um legal cell phone.

SPEAKER_05 38:56

Sure, sure, sure.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

And tried to put the press on her, you know what I mean? Yep. And she reported, which thankfully you know, she's worried about her job, and I'm like, well, no, you you did the right thing. You know, I mean, you we're gonna deal with that guy. But that that that's an additional stressor on staff that it's not necessary. Right. So that's a thing, the personal tablets. So that's been kind of beat up a little bit. And you know, there a lot of folks are arguing, well, they can provide education and stuff like that. Well, just provide it and pick it back up from them. You know what I mean? If if education, you know, my grandkids go to school, they they have Chromebooks and stuff like that. They use stuff in class, they don't uh you know, treat them the same way. You know, I mean, uh, prisoners. Yeah. Now another controversial one is now do you got any questions on that? Another controversial one.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

So I'm ready for the next one, I think.

Rethinking College Programs By Security Level

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Is eliminating college at level three and four. Okay. Nope.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

That wasn't the one I was thinking.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

So that's that's controversial. Obviously, colleges are making money off that. Our thought is that, you know, if you're going to restrict that, you know, threes and fours are the highest wasting money. Most of those guys aren't graduating or getting in trouble. Ones and twos again. And I I can relate to that on both. I mean, as a case manager, I was a case manager of higher security and lower security. I always use the example. Level ones and twos, if you had a program, the guys were waiting on you when you got there. And guess what? They're mad if you get called in sick, or you know, I mean, they they wanted to come to the program. Threes and fours, you start with 30, knowing you're gonna finish, you're gonna be lucky to finish with 10.

SPEAKER_06 40:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Because they're not gonna end up getting in trouble or decide to go to a basketball game or do whatever. That's just the nature of the beast. And of course they're hey, don't, you know, focus that education on, you know, and I talked to legislators, I told her, you know, I'm said I'd rather them just give you$1,000 to go down to local university and just hand it out to kids that are actually working two jobs.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Yeah, put that money where it'll do the most good. Yeah. Yeah. And make them earn it inside. If you want to, if you want education at those levels inside, let somebody else pay for it. Why why should I, as a taxpayer, pay for an inmate to get a college education inside? I have a high school diploma. I just did however many years, you know, 30 inside with a high school diploma. Work ethic, the things that are missing in their life have nothing to do with whether or not they have read Henry David Thoreau. You know, that's that's not what they need. They need work ethic, they need an alarm clock, they need somebody to mentor them and show them how to how to take care of their life. They don't need these college classes.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

You say that. I had a lot of conversations with people, and I've been blessed. I I mean I earned a master's degree eventually, you know, but I had a lot of conversations with people that they come to work and I'm like, you know, because a couple people got offended because we didn't promote them. Uh, I mean, one for example, the lady I promoted, I mean, she graduated from high school, but I can relate we promote her because she shows up all the time, she does a job. Uh, you know what, uh, as an administrator, you keep track of what they're doing. Uh, and then towards the end of the month, you would have to prod the people that can't get the stuff done. And I told a guy that was complaining that basically I don't have to, she's never on the list. Yeah. So why would I promote you over her when you're you're on the list every time? I got a call. So if you can't handle the job you're doing, I'm gonna triple your job responsibilities. Uh, you know, basically I told him, you know, if you don't show up, that thing ain't worth the paper's print on. Yeah. I mean, because we need people, not not certificates on the wall.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Yeah, yeah. If somebody wants to pay for an inmate's correspondence courses with college, uh, all the churches, all the volunteer organizations, you are welcome to to do that. But I don't think my tax money should pay for and I'll tell you a perfect example was Inmate Fountain. Inmate Fountain killed his drill sergeant and killed at least two inmates while he was inside, and then killed a federal correctional officer. And we had a religious organization who paid for him to get his master's degree in theology. Why I don't want taxpayers ever to pay for that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

I mean, I'm at the same I mean, yeah, there's not somebody, I mean, what's the point of the exercise of giving a murder a higher education when he's never getting out? Uh give it to the kid down the street here that, you know, uh is not in the best situation uh that's trying. I mean, I'll give you an example. I mean, I I don't want to get long-winded, but we had internships with our correctional inspection committee. Had a young lady that was working going to high estate, obviously not not from a rich background. You're not probably not familiar with high, but high uh high street runs close to high. All the kids get jobs at the restaurants and stuff like that. She called me and worried that a great employee. I'd hired her today. She called me and said she can't make it. I went, why? And she said somebody broke her window. She was working at the restaurant, and somebody broke her window. Well, somebody like that, uh$700. Window might as well be ten thousand dollars. Sure. Uh because she had to take a day off of work, lost the pay, had to pay for something she didn't have the money for. And yeah, give it to her. Build a playground with it.

SPEAKER_05 44:52

Yeah. So I'm I mean I'm getting on my but Ohio, we talked about a little bit yesterday.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

They've even softened uh because as a ministry the rules in Ohio used to be if you get in college, if you have to stay one year clear rolling fractions. That means anything. You know what I mean? Now they've got it where it's 30 days and you have to uh have been in restrictive housing to lose your college ability to attend, which you know as well as I do. If you worked in uh prisons, tags are always full. So there's there's guys that that are should be in SEG, you just don't have no room for them. Uh and they're going to college because I always use this. I mean, I'll give you another example. When I was a warden, we would offer it at uh level one, two. Uh London, a guy caught me, he got kicked out of program. You know, of course they leave the important part out. He said, Well, you know, they kicked me out for no reason. I'm like, Well why was that? He said, Well, me and an officer got in an argument last night. I said, We got a bingo. You know what I mean? Why would I put you in? I said, What the officer ask you to do? He said, Well, I he asked me to stand for count. I'm like, Well that's in the rules. Guess what? I'll write him up if he didn't do that. You know what I mean? He's just doing his job, so why would I reward you for trying to get him fired?

SPEAKER_04 46:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

And he's like, Well, you know, that sounds ridiculous. I said, Well, don't do it next time. Mm-hmm. Maybe, maybe you'll be all right. And I guess where we got to get back to that, because it's all about behavior.

SPEAKER_05 46:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Right.

SPEAKER_05 46:38

Prisons are easy to mean inmates want that.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

They do. They want the rules to be across the board. Uh, the only inmates that don't want that are the ones who are trying to get around the rules.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Yeah, uh the chaos agents. You know, that's not the I mean, I'm sure you've being a snitch is not a good thing in prison, but uh, you're walking on the yard, a guy say, hey, sell so-and-so, Mr. Noble. Because you know, you build a rapport with guys working 34 years that they trust you. And like, hey, you gotta do something with this guy because he's gonna end up yeah, and you know, and I've always told legislators and that if you don't do that, you're making the criminals. And guess what? A guy that does flowing assault, how's he handle problems? He flowing assault. Yeah, and if you don't do it, they're gonna do it, and it's not gonna be the way you want it.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

I find this interesting.

SPEAKER_05 47:40

Well, in Ohio the legislature actually one of the legislators, he's a retired patrol officer, lieutenant. So he in Ohio, there's no uh you know, codified job description for a director of prisons.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Uh the parole superintendent is very specific, you know, and and that's where that came from. Sure. After this this uh thing. I mean the director's a nice lady, dealt with it's just she didn't have the background to run. You know, it gets back to that. Not everybody can be rehabilitated. Right. I mean, I think you need somebody that knows reality, always views, you know, with legislators, why are we putting Charles Manson through college? It it doesn't make me make me understand the math here. You know what I mean? Uh uh so this executive qualifications is requiring somebody to have uh a level three background, at least three years. And, you know, that helps because they're two different facilities. A level one, I mean, working at them, they're two different diverse facilities. Your rehabilitation's happening at one and twos, not threes and fours.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

I'm gonna read this real quick, this little section here. Uh, this reform increases accountability and ensures correctional policies are guided by expertise and experience, not by a political appointee with limited to no background and experience in the field of corrections. The requirement for the director to meet specific professional qualifications. I like that. Professional qualifications and corrections means that you have been there, done that, that you've seen it, that you've worked inside in my world. So I really love the way that's written. Um, it is something that's going on across the country. Uh, we've got, you know, if you go back, we didn't have as many political appointees. Uh, they usually came up through the job, but now we're having people who are chasing political goals getting appointed into those jobs. So I would love to see us go back to having administrators that came up through the ranks that know what it's like to sit in a chair and watch inmates in a SEG unit in a broken chair, you know, and what prison smells like and what it's like to be attacked. Uh, I think it would change the way they administrate.

SPEAKER_05 50:10

Yeah, I mean, I'm with you. I mean, uh, it's nothing like uh experiencing it.

SPEAKER_01 50:16

I mean, I think it's gotten it, and Ohio's gotten it. It's a lot of political things, you know, and that doesn't help. That that's why we have vacancies. That's why we have chaos in prisons. Our juvenile facility is absolutely off the hook. Yeah. How anybody can work there? I mean, I've worked 39 years in the system. I don't think I can make it a weekend. No. The way because there's no accountability, and they just keep ignoring it. Like it's not not there. Well, as they ignore it, you know, people, you know, I'll give you an example. I mean, another example, we were up there in the administration. Like I said, you when you're working the system a long time, people rely on you to speak for them. And uh uh older lady uh was like, Well, you know, you gotta, I'm getting getting mandated multiple times, and I can't do it. I'm you know, I'm working to put my grandkids through private school. Right. You got two more years. I don't think I can do it. You gotta help us. You know what I mean? That's if I brought it up at our closing, they said said that. Well, she's not mandated wise. We went went to the alley institution, she's in the control center, and they told me that she's not mandated. She volunteered. Well, she volunteered so she didn't get mandated. Right. That's a mandation of me. Uh you know what I mean? But that's being dishonest, you know what I mean? Uh anybody in crowd, I'm sure you uh when you called and froze somebody, you know it wasn't a voluntary thing, or you ask them, hey, if I go to work. I had to em count, hey, we're asking you to work now, we're gonna call you back ten minutes and make you work. We don't have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Or you could volunteer for one of the jobs that's opened, or I'll mandate you for the one that's left.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

That's that's what she does.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah, it's not a job.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

So she can see her grandkids stuff. Yeah. I don't know about you. That's the person you want to keep.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

I mean, the person that's taking care of their grandkids, that's who you want to interact with, kids.

SPEAKER_05 52:12

But that's but that's part of that um just the qualifications.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

And you know, I don't know how you feel in the country. They talk about more transparency, it's got less I think political people have political ramifications. Yes. I can tell you as a warden and deputy, was there stuff that we did stupid or staff member did something stupid? But I never somebody would reach out and that's public information to slow walk that stuff. Yeah. And that's that's become more transparent. And something I would like to go back to that education. I talked about that big drug bust. The rules have been watered down so much. One of those guys was a big influencer in that drug situation. Ross Correction right now in college at state taxpayers' expense, where Andy Lansing got killed a year and a half ago. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 53:11

And it blows your mind, absolutely blows your mind.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

It's just I'm not the smartest guy, but that uh uh you know, CO that starts today walks in some kids like, what uh what's going on here? Yeah, I mean uh uh you know that like drugs, I tell legislators.

SPEAKER_05 53:31

Somebody bringing in fentanyl risks the front entry officer's life, the visiting officer's life, obviously the person bringing it in. Everybody that can comes in touch with that.

SPEAKER_01 53:45

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

The officer searching the cell.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

I mean, everybody Well, we had a situation like that where six officers went to the went to the hospital over that.

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Um so Yeah, the Bureau of Prisons lost an officer a couple of years ago from uh fentanyl exposure. Yeah, yeah, and it's frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Isn't that enough?

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Absolutely. Why why do you know about it?

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Yeah, isn't that enough to say um uh I'm sure that person had family, had friends.

SPEAKER_05 54:19

Uh they're not and go back to why we called this the Andy Lance. I mean, nice guy. Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 54:29

We said we'd we we'd want to sit down and drink a beer with and talk about the good. I mean, I I can tell you the relate relate to time I met him, I took a legislator down because Death Rose down there and he was working, and uh he was in the aftery, and I was in the aftery, and obviously he was giving me a hard time about that. Guys do that all the time. You know what I mean? Like when uh uh uh I don't think you're you know cutting a mustard as much. Uh he was giving me a hard time, but that's the kind of people we want uh working, and can't relate that inmates want that.

SPEAKER_05 55:05

They want order, they want um ramifications. You know, they can't rehabilitate if they don't.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

I mean, like drugs are flooding the system. If you're a drug addict and you're putting a cell, the guy's got a bunch of drugs, that's not helping your situation at all.

How Listeners Can Support The Bill

SPEAKER_00 55:25

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Well, you know, what the reason I wanted you on here is because it's so important what you're doing. It's so important not only to keep to memorialize Andy through this, you know. I never met Andy Lansing, but you know, I've seen pictures of him, I've heard stories of him. He just looks like a happy guy. We know he was a veteran, we know he was a good correctional officer from all the stories I've heard from people that worked around him, and for you guys to memorialize his memory from what is a murder by an inmate and change that for the future correctional officers to change some of these things that may or may not have contributed, but they're all issues that need to be addressed. They're all issues that have directly to do with the safety of the people who work, specifically in Ohio. Now, I wish that some of this would spread across the country. I really do. I wish other agencies would would take this example in Ohio and do it. I think our officers would feel safer. I think they would feel more respected if some of these laws were put in place. So I just want to thank you for what you're doing and what everybody else, I want you to go back and tell all the people you're working with how much a lot of correctional officers really appreciate what you guys are doing, even if it is just for Ohio right now. Maybe you'll set the standard and maybe that'll grow.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

I want to reach a say thanks, Mark. Mark Johnson's a state rep, and Phil Palmer, he's a state rep. Uh he's a he's a retired sheriff, so he kind of understands. Hats off to both of them proposing us. And I'm like you, I hope it goes. I mean, I've been to a lot of New York, they need help. Yeah. Michigan needs help. Uh you know, I mean, these are young folks starting their careers. I want them to have a successful career like I did. Sure. Sure. Be safe.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Yeah. So in the notes, I will put a link to uh you think it's okay if I put a link to the Yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Uh actually uh I'm a long talker.

SPEAKER_05 57:27

Uh I don't know if you noticed that. I thought that Riff through it down.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

People are listening, if they want to reach out to Senator Nathan Manning, the highest senant, he's the head of the Judiciary Committee. We've had our first hearing on, I mean, it passed with three no votes in the state, the high high house. So that tells you across the board. The Senate that goes to committee hearings, it's gone to the first hearing, but it has to go to at least two more. And we're wanting it to be pushed through so this gets on the books. Yep. Because we've had people get injured uh like at survivor's benefits. We don't want some staff member to have to live that again. No. But uh, you can reach out, I mean, to Nathan Manning, Ohio Senate. I had it written down here.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

That's okay. I'll get it and we'll put it in the notes.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

Yeah, I'll email you the name and address or the number, the email, but reach out to him and uh other corrections people throughout the we've had a few folks from different states uh, you know, talk to us about it. It's a start, but we have to do stuff for these correctional people. I mean, I'm sure you're you're everywhere, all over the country. It's just not an high. I mean, these folks do Lord the Lord's work. We have to support them.

Final Thanks And Closing

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being on here, Jeff. I appreciate it. I know everybody's gonna love hearing about this. I'll get with you and make sure we get all the information put in the show notes. So, guys, when you get done, go down to the show notes. Those will be the links that you need to contact the people who are working so hard on this. If you haven't done it, uh hit that like button, subscribe to the channel so you know the next time we've got somebody on. Uh, hope you have a great day, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

I appreciate it, man. Uh appreciate you taking the time and uh appreciate your service to the corrections community.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

Absolutely. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

Thank you.