125: What If Better Training Prevented Most Use Of Force? - Interview w/Joe Buice

Most use-of-force problems don’t start with bad intent; they start with bad preparation. We’re talking with Joe Buice, a lifelong martial artist and retired sheriff’s office lieutenant who has spent decades in corrections, led high-liability teams, and now serves as Pepperball’s Director of Implementation. The result is a practical, no-theory conversation about what actually keeps officers safe in jails, prisons, and street encounters. 

We get specific about defensive tactics and why “just grab an arm” fails when stress hits. Joe breaks down the real gap he sees across agencies: perishable skills treated like check-the-box training. We discuss how hesitation shows up in body-worn video reviews, why fundamentals and repetition create fluidity, and how control tactics can reduce injuries for both staff and inmates while staying inside policy and lawful orders. 

We also connect the dots between training and leadership. Joe shares how strong teams are built by putting the right people in the right roles, leading from the front, and slowing down long enough to listen. Then we shift to safer options first, including Pepperball for distance, area saturation, buffer zones, and lowering the career-long toll of hands-on fights. If you care about corrections officer safety, law enforcement training, defensive tactics that work, and smarter use of force decisions, this one delivers. 

PepperBall - jbuice@pepperball.com

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/joe-b-56116bb1

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Transcript

Sponsor Message And Safer Force Tools

SPEAKER_01 0:35

In more than twenty-eight years of corrections, I have used or supervised pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of the pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rack yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox with ranges up to 150 feet and hoppers that can hold 160 rounds. Pepperball is perfect for controlling large crowds or group disturbances on your yard. Pepperball allows for non-lethal direct impact to control inmates who refuse to comply with lawful orders. And area saturation allows you to achieve buffer zones between groups or use it for area denial to keep inmates away from security equipment and other accessible areas. To learn more about Pepperball, go to www.pepperball.com or click the link below in the show's information guide. Pepperball is the safer option first. Well, hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. Today I've got a good friend of mine. I've been we've been trying to plan this for a little bit, but uh I'm glad we finally got to do this. Uh Joe and I have been working together for a long time. I'm going to introduce him here with uh uh just kind of tell you a little bit about this amazing person. Uh Joe Bice is a lifelong martial artist with over 40 years of training across multiple disciplines uh and at master level ranks, including French teeth in Goshen Jitsu. So he may have to uh correct me on that here in a minute. Uh he's a retired sheriff's office lieutenant with an extensive background in corrections, a former commander of the elite law enforcement units there. He now serves as uh Pepperball's director of implementation. Uh he teaches advanced tactics uh to leading agencies uh nationwide. And I'm gonna embarrass him here because uh uh when I first met Joe and got to work with him, I guess it's been four or five years now, um, I got to watch him teach defensive tactics. And I was blown away. He's probably the best defensive tactics instructor I've ever watched, and I've been wanting to talk to him about how he teaches and what he thinks about defensive tactics, you know, in law enforcement and corrections. So welcome to the podcast, Joe. I'm so happy to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Wow, thank you very much. I don't know if I can uh I can recover from that. That was very good, Mike. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

I didn't even have to make any of it up. No, no, at least not the majority, right? That's good.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

That's awesome. Uh no, that's uh that's really good. I I appreciate it, and we have been trying to uh get together with this for a while and uh both of us busy schedules and everything else.

Georgia Roots And Martial Arts Influence

SPEAKER_01 3:10

But yeah, thank you for having me on. Absolutely. You know, I start these conversations the same. I think everybody looks forward to it. Let's learn a little bit about you. Tell me where you grew up and uh how that was.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Sure. I uh I grew up in Georgia, so that's my my home state. Uh I I said that I spent the majority of my life around Lake Lanier.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

And uh that went down the wrong hole. Okay. So tell me about where you grew up, Joe.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Yeah, I grew up uh in Georgia. So Georgia's the home state. Uh always claims they say where where are you from? North Georgia Mountains, uh the Fersythe County, Buford area, uh really around Lake Lanier. So I grew up there and I moved to Gwinnett uh after right about graduation, right about in 89, 90, somewhere in there.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Right. And uh what did you do in school? I mean, were you in sports? Were you I was in trouble some, but no, I tried to do it.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Uh no, I I really uh that's where I started martial arts. I actually started at a pretty young age. Uh didn't really uh I really wanted to do a lot more with sports at the time. Uh growing up, I was more interested in getting a part-time job, trying to make a living, trying to do something for myself, and not really a career, but uh, you know, I guess we all come from different walks of life, and and I grew up, I was thinking, how am I going to make the next step? So martial arts seemed to be something uh I found a school, started training with a good friend of mine, and it led into more of a lifestyle or a passion. And um I I I granted I don't do it as much as I used to now, but uh there was a time where every day I was out just obsessing on something, some new technique or trying to learn something new.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Well, we're about the same age, so tell me if I'm wrong, but uh I was heavily influenced, took some took some classes back then, uh Stephen Segal, Jean-Claude Van Damme. I mean, we had the martial art movies back during that time, didn't we?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Oh, we we had them. They were all out. You know, you had Jackie Chan, you had uh on top of that, Jeff Speakman and stuff. I still I still track some of those. I'll still look them up every once in a while. Oh, yeah. But uh some really some some really good people that were phenomenal in film um and uh real classic martial artist. Uh Chuck Norris.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Can't forget Chuck.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

Yeah, you can't forget Chuck Norris and uh don't know if you're familiar with Jeff Amada, but Jeff Amada has done over what 600 films from Book of Eli to lethal weapon movies back in the day, but just excellent martial artist and uh stunt coordinator and choreographer.

Odd Jobs Before The Badge

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Cool. Yeah, I think we were all influenced a little. So you get out of high school, you're looking for a job, where does that take you?

First Days In The Jail

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Yeah, so I'm out of high school and trying to figure out life. And uh, you know, as most young kids, I worked uh everything from a detail shop and a car wash to uh I uh uh traveled off with a buddy of mine to the U.S. Virgin Islands and uh St. Thomas after Hurricane Hugo and spent time over there rebuilding, come back and uh I I said lived lived a different life. I was teaching martial arts and training and thought that was what I was gonna do for a living. And uh yeah, I I started working as a uh in a warehouse, running forklift and working shipping and receiving goods, and and I thought, you know, I'm not sure if this is what I'm cut out to do. And a buddy of mine says, Hey, with your and your knowledge and your background, and they've trained with me before. They said, Have you ever thought about going into military or law enforcement? And uh I had my family, some of my family has uh a background in law enforcement, and I said, Sure. Um I actually said, you know, uh let me take a look at it, and went in, and next thing you know, I was at a local sheriff's office. Okay. And what what did you start off at there? Uh I started off in the jail. So we everybody starts off in the house. Actually, I started off my first month, was in central control and uh waiting on a uh class to come up. So it's like you had to wait for a uh class to come up, and the first what year, almost two years, I was in uh direct supervision, uh working in uh inside corrections, a housing unit, and uh that was kind of my first uh I guess first position in law enforcement.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

That's what I was doing. What'd you think the first time the grill slammed? And you're in the case.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

You know, that's kind of disturbing, right? I uh, you know, I'd got in trouble as a young kid for uh running too fast in a car one night, and I ended up getting picked up. My dad had to pick me up, but uh yeah, it's it's something you go in, you're like, I'm not sure if this is for me or not. But I uh working in, I don't know if it was just direct supervision, but there was something about it. I started realizing it's made up uh it's its own little community made up of different personalities, different people. You have uh you have some people that uh you know these are all they're not all bad guys. You always hear that, oh, are you in there with the bad guys? Well like, well, I'm sure there's some in there, but they're not all bad. And uh it is our community. So I started realizing it's it's good to start learning who you're dealing with. Uh I thought that's where I really built a good foundation in communicating with people, talking to people, interviewing people. So it was uh it was a time that I really treasured.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

That's interesting. You talk about something and there's something that I didn't experience. I worked in prisons, so I ran into people that I knew sometimes, but working in you know a jail in your own community, you're having to handle people that you know from the street that you maybe grew up with. How did how did you did you run into some of that?

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Yeah, it's funny say uh not as often. So I grew up more towards Fersythe County in that way. I'm in I was in Gwynette uh working. And uh as I'm working, I don't I didn't really see many people that I knew, but on occasion I did have them in the housing unit. And you and remember a lot of these were pre-trial. They these were uh these were uh not convicted at the time. Uh you did have convicted sentences, sentenced inmates that were in there. But uh yeah, I ran into them, and most of them I told them, you know, I'm here to treat everybody fair, be respectful, and they were respectful for me. Didn't uh you know, I I don't think I had many that would try to try to push that and ask for favors. And if they did, I'd tell them, you know, hey, can't do that. You know, sorry about that, but we can't do it right now. And uh most of them understood. They had a they had a good respect for what I was doing, and they knew if I did a good job, then I was keeping them safe as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Absolutely. Yeah. I actually had to have one of mine transferred that I knew from school, and he came, he's like, Oh man, you're here. We can and I'm like, We, no, there's no we end up with this. Uh we're on separate time here. Yeah. Yeah, we we are not again. We're we're working, is what we're doing. That's right. So um, so you're in corrections, and apparently you told me you liked it. What were your plans at that time? Where did you uh what was your goals in life? What were you thinking about at that time?

Why Corrections Kept Calling Him Back

SPEAKER_02 10:39

You know, I again I think it goes back to we just grew up maybe in a different time. I uh, you know, I was thinking more of the Starski and Hutch and the old days and uh Miami Vice, and I'm like, you know, I first came in looking, I said, Hey, uh, you know, where is the boat patrol? I want to go to the boat patrol unit, and we're close to Lake Lanier, and they're like, Yeah, yeah, come on in, work with us. And uh we say it was a recruiting thing. You get there and they're like, Oh, there is no boat patrol, that's the next county over, that's Hall. But uh I I really was wanting to try to do as much as I could in law enforcement and just get a full experience of everything and and really I I had thoughts in my head wanting to help help people in the community and do more. Uh so I I had a desire to go to the road, so I ended up uh actually leaving and working in the domestic violence unit. Um once I got transferred over there, there was this calling. I just I just really enjoyed. I know a lot of people, they either do or they don't, but I really enjoyed the jail. I worked, I liked working in the the environment. I worked uh like the corrections team that we had and working with those guys, and I found myself over 23, right at 24 years. Uh, no matter where I went or what I did, I did my overtime back there a lot. I would go back. I always train with the guys, they train with us. And uh I did it and at the time maybe it wasn't popular. I don't know if it is now, but it wasn't popular then. Everybody's like, why do you keep going to the jail? And I'm like, it's there's just something about it. It's just uh it has its own draw to me and uh it has a special place in my heart. Maybe that's where I started, and that's why I push to go to uh different events every year and uh try to host good quality classes for our corrections officers because sometimes they get forgotten or left out. And uh and and that's not the case. They are they're an amazing group of people, and once you start working with them and around them, it is uh it's good times.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Yeah. It's interesting, and I haven't heard of that before. So even while you were on patrol, they would let you go do corrections over time.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Yep, you could go that the jail was shorthanded. Uh they would let us go work in the back. Now, you if you came from another agency and you did not have uh certain certifications or you have you're not used to the building, but no, you could go back there and work and uh hours. Mostly at the the time I was on the road, I did more uh shakedown of housing units or uh any type of uh situations that came up with the uh with uh cell extractions or different things of that nature. I'd be called back in or call in or go in or assist. But hey, I at the in a sheriff's office you work at the leisure of the sheriff, so if you know he desires, you know, you can you can help out wherever you wherever is needed, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

It's uh so you start training and and you're absolutely right. Sometimes corrections is forgotten, and I've always found correctional officers to be very I guess the word's hungry for good training, you know, because sometimes we get the leftovers. Uh I don't know how many times I was the only corrections guy in a law enforcement class. Yeah, you know, and so when you get to train them, they seem very hungry. Did you find that? Well, and you were doing what, defensive tactics? Is that where you started in the training with them?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yeah, I actually uh I actually was working in the jail in a medical unit, and I put in for the cert team, it's a you know, whatever name people want to call it, but it's a tactical team working in the jail. And uh I was told they said, Hey, you're you're not big enough. You're just not big enough. We're looking for these big guys. And uh at some point, I don't know how it came out in training or or however, but they said, This guy's got some type of skills, so we want you to come to the team. And then I came in and then I started exploring what's real, what works, what's simplistic, and uh what maybe is good in Hollywood or in movies, but it's not good in in real life. And I changed actually the term. I just started saying that we're doing more control tactics than is it offensive or defensive? I guess uh I don't know, maybe it's just words, but I said we were we're more controlling people or or learning to control them with the I would say maybe the least amount of force to do an objective, to to change behavior, to get control. So that really my like that kicked off my passion for getting to go back, work with these guys, and uh I I don't know. I just thought that they're a unique group of people and sometimes underappreciated. And you're right, there's many times I don't get either short staffed or many different reasons. We don't, they're not getting a lot uh of the training classes that maybe you see other officers get at times.

Watching Videos And Fixing Hesitation

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yeah. Um I got to see both sides of the defensive tactics, state of Missouri. I worked there for eight plus years, they were very hands-on control tactics, arm bars, you know, and we did a lot of that. And then when I went to the Bureau of Prisons, it was all defensive stuff. If somebody comes after you, how to do reverse spider crawls and kick with your feet, you know, and nothing to get a hold of somebody. So I I always had an advantage because I had been through uh classes where they taught you how to control someone. Uh it's something that I see, and uh you tell me if I'm if you see the same thing, but I see the videos on uh TV and stuff and they post uh correct uh corrections and police trying to get a hold of people, and we don't teach them enough because they're fighting on the ground, wrestling with somebody when they shouldn't be. They should have already had a hold of an arm, done a little pain compliance, thrown whatever, you know. And do you see that a lot when you watch these videos and do after actions? Yeah, there's a there's a whole lot.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

I mean, uh we were I kind of I still do that with the job now, and and you kind of touched on it. I'm with uh Pepperball and I teach law enforcement across the country, and I still review a lot of videos, uh corrections on the road, just different places. But some of the ones recently I've uh seen people who either maybe they're not confident in their skills or maybe they're hesitating for one reason or another. And uh at times, you know, I look back on it because I was a guy who would go in there trying to teach, but we have to take ownership of that at some point and go, hey, we need to teach our officers better or give them better quality or bring them in. Now, you know, granted, you have to have motivation yourself and want to do those things. Sure. Uh, but you see hesitation, you do see people who it seems things are missing, basic fundamentals, even with uh like an arm bar. The arm bar is not grabbing someone's arm and putting it on the ground, or if they are they are not going to do it. There may be a loosening, uh a Timmy or strike to loosen the person up, make them pliable to actually be able to move them into a control situation. But those little pieces are missing sometimes in training. Right. And then they go, Well, I don't know why it don't work. Well, there's a little more to it than that. It's not just getting a hold of the wrist.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

You know, it's not it.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

It's may grab your wrist. I'm not gonna be able to move you my, you know, that's uh you have to loosen and make them pliable by uh performing some other type of technique or loosening blow or strike within policy.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

I do see more people these days, and you talked about you have to have the motivation to go learn and and you know get good at this. It says there that, and you're I'm gonna let you explain what is Renshi in Goshen Jiu Jitsu or Jitsu, but more people are taking jujitsu lately.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Yeah, Goshen Ru are a lot of the jujitsu, uh of course there's a lot of the either Japanese or uh Brazilian, uh, but Renshi is just a polished instructor. That's what that reads, you reach a rank of uh what people consider a polished instructor.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

And uh I haven't been one and I still don't. I am not big about saying, hey, look at me, I'm a master of anything. I feel like I'm always learning and I'm always challenging myself, um even to the point of you know, it's great to get a black belt. These are goals. And I was always told black belt is the beginning. That is the beginning of your lifelong journey. And uh at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what color my belt is, uh, when you're inside uh a jail or prison or on the street, so you really do have to put a lot of work into it. And uh it's a perishable skill. And I think to motivate people, however it may be, through monetary gain, hey, we'll pay you extra money or overtime or train or uh or or just have a good leader that will lead from the front, get in there and do it with you. But to get the guys in there, the training is really important because it again, what I learned 20, 30 years ago, uh, if I haven't done it since then, is not going to be as fluid. Because everybody goes, How are you so fluid and fast? Well, it's repetition and practice and it's uh working those basic fundamentals over and over.

The Biggest Defensive Tactics Training Gap

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Yeah. You may and we may have already answered this, so just tell me if I'm uh not getting it. But uh what do you think the biggest gap right now that you see? Because we travel all over the country, we get to go see uh correctional officers and police officers all over the country. What do you think the biggest gap right now in defensive tactics is? You know, what are what are the agencies um not uh spending time and money um to put out there?

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah, um some of the big gaps. I would say it's been changing over the last it it seems like it's a constant uh chain at points. Uh the last couple of years I don't see as many uh sometimes the quality of training's there. Some agencies are right jam up. I get there and I go, this is a really solid program, and they're putting a lot of time into it. The officers are training, and then you get others where you will go. And uh I would say the time to put in, they may go once a year to a training or some type of training class, and then that's all they're putting in. And then they go, you know, why did this not work when I wanted it to work? But uh again, it goes back to to putting in. So I guess maybe the the hole in that or the crack is the emphasis on it's not just something to do once or twice a year. You can go and uh maybe do your GCIC or you do certain certifications once or twice a year, but this is uh it's perishable. It's something it's gotta be fluid, it's gotta be natural, and you do have to put the time in. You gotta put the work in.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

It's not, you know. I was talking to uh Judy Simon Garrett, I had her on a podcast uh a couple of weeks ago, and this book is Prisons and Beyond. And this was written by the first director of the Bureau of Prisons. And in here, and this is 1938, he talks about the need for officers to have jujitsu. And they were training it at the academy back then, so these aren't new thoughts. No, no, they're not.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

You're right. You're right. A lot of this has it's been around. If you go back and look, there's just been uh so much that's been not just through law enforcement and corrections or street order, but in in general, in a whole. Uh yeah, we we've had so much knowledge, so much out there. So many things have came and went. And I also see uh knowledge base. You have older instructors and guys who are retiring out, and then you do have new things coming in. And uh I I've signed up for many, I've I've taken many programs. I still I don't ever reach a level in my career I didn't where I was like, okay, I am I am the master. I am Zen and I am good. I always wanted to keep progressing. So a lot of the uh Gracie uh classes that they put on for law enforcement, I went to those. Uh there's been, oh my goodness, uh, anytime I could go to a DT instructor school, whether it's federally or state, uh, or at Fletsi or, you know, uh for Scythe, uh, that's a place in Georgia, I would sign up to go. I just really started making an obsession because you can always find little pieces, little nuggets that are great. And then you may find some and go, mmm, that's really good, but I'm not gonna be doing that. Maybe, maybe that's not appropriate at my my agency. But I I would think that there's a lot out there, Mike, and that's uh that's really interesting because you can find old judo footage as well of things they did, especially when you get the PR24s and the the old batons from the day that uh sure some of those were not just for striking, they were actually used for control techniques.

Incentives For Skill And Better Instructors

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yeah. I I love your idea that you mentioned while ago, you know, if if you hire on with some departments and you have a college degree, you get an extra few thousand dollars a year for having a college degree. I I think that's a great idea, and some administrators ought to take a look at that. If you have a black belt, if you have uh this knowledge, why wouldn't we give you an extra$500,000, whatever, you know, dollars? That's a safer employee. That's an employee that can stop and and can minimize use of force. It's not just about fighting for your life, it's about an employee who can minimize use of force. Can you talk to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Yeah, um, I think a great idea. Um, there are think of I'm not gonna say different categories, and I'm sure there's exceptions uh to the rule. And uh one of the biggest things I uh you probably have heard me say, I said there's more than one way of doing things, and there's I think there's more than one thought process, but let's explore this a little bit. You have a guy who I meet that's a third-degree black belt in a martial art, and he is an excellent, excellent teacher, and he he's got the basic fundamentals down, and his you can tell what he was made for in life. He he's good at passing that information to another, but he's not a very good martial artist or fighter, as far as you say as to do things, or you'll have a good fighter, but maybe they're not a good passing on the knowledge, and then you do meet someone occasionally that's very well-rounded of both. But yeah, it's uh I think it could be a benefit to departments to find individuals with backgrounds and go, hey, this guy is uh he is a martial artist or he's had X amount of training, and is he willing to is he willing or capable to convert it to our policy and our rules of engagement? And to can they teach that? Can you pass along that knowledge to others? Um there's uh I I've been to years ago, and I guess I could tell myself, and I went to a martial arts instructor, and the instructor uh was very rigid. Everything and it was kind of it's classical, maybe I I say classical martial arts or traditional, but demonstrate the technique and whatever it is, and then you are to figure out a lot of application of how it works. And then I find myself in with what we're doing, and and again we go back to corrections when I teach it uh like the mock prison riots or the cell extraction course, uh breaking it down slowly, piece by piece, and explaining why are we doing this movement, why are we doing this technique, and then let's let's transition into it, let's let's see it play out. So a benefit uh I think for anyone that uh for an agency to have them come in with any type of training that would do that, maybe to if not to pay them more or an increase of pay to bring them into the agency, maybe even an encouragement to go, we would like to see you progress, progress on a path to uh to training division so that you can start training our employees and our people. I went to many agencies and trained staff for judges on uh defensive tactics, control tactics, uh, and other other agencies, other departments, and uh where I come in and work with their team and I tell them this is just another way of doing things. It's all it's all been done before in one way or another, but this is just a different way.

Pepperball For Distance And Area Control

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Yeah. Let's talk about uh, you know, well, where we met was pepperball. We're both master instructors and pepperball. And um, you know, people would think pepperball and defensive tactics, those are on opposite spectrums. But I've watched you teach. I think you know how I teach. And both ways, it is about uh the safety of the officer. That's why we're so passionate about it. And pepperball is, you know, that's what we believe. It it absolutely sets the officer up uh to be able to do things in a safe way and to minimize use of force. What do you go ahead and just tell me, you know, why you why you joined Pepperball, what you think about it, and uh let's hear about that for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah, uh the draw with Pepperball is uh we not only we used it in the jail, but uh it's it's being used in jails and prisons all over the country with success and on the road in the street. Um I think a lot of it is it's very similar to what kids use on a paintball field, 10 to 12 foot pounds of energy, very low, and it can be used for area saturation or alter the environment of a cell or or car or vehicle or home or whatever you're in. So yeah, if we can uh if we can keep our officers safe and keep uh them healthy, that's been healthy here as well as across the body. That's that's something good. And I've noticed uh I'm not sure who said it, but I remember from years ago they always say there's no winners in a fight. And I'm like, well, I don't know what that means. Sure there is. There's a winner and there's a loser. And it's you know, and then I started realizing if you're working, you know, intake on a Saturday night and there's only two of you in pre-admissions, and you know, and uh you're you're bringing in 65 people come in the back door, and you know, out of the 65, what we'll say five or ten of them they want to fight, and then you're fighting them. Well, that may be the only fight they're in, maybe that month, maybe their whole life, but you're gonna be doing that every night through your career. So those little bumps, when you drop your knee on that floor out, you know, in those in those prisons and jails, or you fall and hit your elbow or hit your head or hit your hand, uh, it takes a toll on you. So the more that we could use like a tool like for me, pepper ball, and that's what I got into for us. And there it's a lot you can save the career of some officers and keep them extended. Um I've been seeing a lot, and uh for the past couple of years, you go to agencies and there are guys with their knee, my knees messed up, you know, our backs are messed up, our necks are messed up, our hands are messed up. Um, so hopefully, if it's doing the same for our officers, is it also doing the same for the inmates or the suspect or whoever it is? Yeah, the more we can keep hands off people, uh, the better. You know, the the better we're the longer we're gonna substa, the longer we're gonna last. And uh, and I know I hear a lot of this, there is always a time and a place to put hands on people, to use pepperball or other things, or maybe simultaneous. Uh, but we do have to be smarter as officers because uh I'm not sure the injury rate, I'd love to see some data on that, but I'm sure the injury rate overall when people retire out is it uh it's a pretty high level. If you uh you know, we're we leave a we live a pretty dynamic uh lifestyle, and then the environment that we're in can take a toll on us after a while.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

I'm I'm hopeful because I know you know over my career when I started Missouri State Penn, we didn't use we didn't use anything, no pepper spray or nothing. We popped the door, five guys ran in. That was the way we did every use of force. Um and I did a thousand use of forces over my career, um, but I just had a shoulder replacement, complete shoulder replacement. And that's what it was from was from a use of force. So I do think we've come a long way. I don't think the officers get beat up quite as bad as we did back then. No, yeah. So I'm hoping, you know, as we get better at some of this other stuff, that there's even going to be a generation ahead who gets beat up very little and they only have to.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Yeah, I would hope so. Because we I think I've heard all what was all the terms the polyester pile and the dog pile or whatever. There's a lot, but when you're when you're in it, and I first uh when I first started, that's when I realized I may not know everything, but there is something to teaching some of the stuff that I teach because um I I was in a cell. We were doing cell extraction and the same thing. We had a lot of officers go in, I'm on the ground, and next thing I know, I think it was an ERD back in the day. It was right, it was about the time that I first heard of Taser and ERD, but the guy's like, I've got his leg, and I'm like, That's my leg. And then somebody's put punching someone else, and all the officers come out beat up and bruised up. Everybody is injured, and you're like, there's gotta this makes no sense. There's gotta be a better way.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Including the inmate. Oh, including him. Which the sheriff office is gonna pay, you know, liability or medical or whatever for. Yeah. Yeah, there's you're right. Nobody wins.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Nobody wins. It's horrible. It's horrible at the end of the day. So I I have faith too, Mike. I think uh the generations should be, we should be getting better. We should be there are things that that it's progression has come a long way, and I think that uh there are things that we can be doing uh to keep it going. You keep you keep getting better and better. The blast and some of those other devices we're using in Pepperball, excellent, excellent tools.

Discipline Means Patience Before Force

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Yeah, I think anything that we can do to not put hands on, and pepperball gives us multiple layers of that before we have to, and I have. I have used you know pepperball, I've used area saturation, done direct impact, still didn't work, and you got to go through the door. But by the time you go through the door, that inmate is feeling the effects of PAVA, right? They felt the effects of getting hit with the direct impact. So they're not as willing to fight as they were if you just popped that door when they were super bad. Yeah. So it does. You know, one of the main things, and you've I've heard you talk about this before and and through martial arts, was discipline. It taught you discipline, and you talk about discipline. What does that mean to you? What what is discipline um when it comes to use of force, when it comes to being a good officer?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

You know, uh, you know, that's that's something that's it's it's elusive, and I'm always striving for it, never mastering. But uh, no, discipline, it is true to a sense. I mean, uh I think martial arts, if you're looking at that angle, what what it's kind of taught me is to uh to not rush in, to be more patient, uh to try to think sometimes before we act, or make our actions deliberate when we do them. Uh, there's so many times people, and and I I've done it, I've done it when I'm young. You you you get excited, you run in, and you run in either to a bad situation or a time when you could have taken your time. There was no need to rush. Uh so some of the things that I throw out there is uh, and I hope I'm not too far off with it, but uh when I say that off your question, but is to think about the discipline it takes to hold what you've got, wait for your backup, wait for someone else, assess the situation, and see do we need to do this immediately now, or what are our priorities? Is our priorities really to go in here and get uh the trash out of the window blocking the outside, or is the problem maybe a medical or a psychological issue that's going on? All that is a discipline, and uh it takes work because sometimes you focus in on those little details. And uh so discipline in your life, again, I I haven't mastered it by any means. I'm still working every day. But uh yeah, I think that martial arts helped a lot with that. That was uh it's kept me really grounded in focus throughout the years.

Teams And Units He Led

SPEAKER_01 35:18

Yeah, I think you're dead on. I think especially when we're young, we feel this need to, well, I said do it, that means now. And that's not always the safest way. So yeah, I think you're dead on with that. So while you were out there on patrol, I know you ran some teams, you were doing that for quite a bit. Tell me some of the challenges you ran into and and what the teams you were running. Tell me about what that was.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Yeah, uh, so I guess I I could start with uh the corrections team. Uh I ended up when I retired out, I had a lot of the high liability teams uh under my belt or under my uh direction. And uh the of course the corrections team is 24 hours, seven days a week kind of operation, you know, that never never stops, that can consistently goes. Uh search and rescue was one that uh for the North Georgia Mountains, I I enjoyed uh training and wood uh navigation from outside to help me. I always felt there was something really good about trying to find missing hikers or people. Um I don't know. I I thought that was a big need for that. I can see how that's a true mission of search and your finding. So, and plus you're outside. I do like the outdoors. Um, but the other one would be domestic violence unit uh working, serving temporary protection orders, uh child custody, different things. Again, you're working with a lot of victims and uh trying to help families a lot and the warrant service behind it. And uh from there I had dignitary protection. So we just for the uh agency I used to work with, we conducted many dignitary protection uh details over the years for some high profile individuals coming into our county, uh, which became a passion of mine, and I continue doing to this day. I still do uh some protection details and teach that as well. Uh fugitive unit, plain clothes, serving warrants. Uh I love I say I played in it, I could have stayed there forever. I think I love I love doing that. There is a passion between actual hunting people.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

So uh other than that, you know, I had those. I'm probably forgetting one, but uh the Beat the Heat program, participating in that, is a drag racing program to help kids uh try to get them off the streets and onto the track. Uh I felt that was something I should try to give back because I was a little wild when I was young. And uh driving, my driving was always uh like I like to go fast, so I said, Hey, once I became an officer, I said at times you look at how maybe you can't change the past, but you look at how can we help and how can we help other kids that may be dealing with the same thing or going through the same thing as you, and that was one of them. So beat the heat program. Um I think that's about it. There there may have been one or two, but uh yeah, I I really enjoyed different aspects of that uh for law enforcement, and I would say the domestic violence unit was probably one of my uh favorite units as well to work in. I felt there was a lot of reward out of that and uh to help help families. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

What would be your advice to new or experienced team leaders? How do you run a good team?

SPEAKER_02 38:39

What does it take? Uh yeah, how do you run a good team? I would think really some good it good solid advice is figuring out uh your your players, figuring out your people and putting those pieces in the right place. So many times I've seen people who you're like, wow, this guy is he he's doing X, whatever that may be, could be very intellectual or doing one thing, and you go, This guy would be perfect for uh you know, writing an ops plan and and planning things out, and he's detail-oriented. And others you may go, this guy, you know, he's suited to be on entry. It's not so a lot of times I'm seeing and I've done it before as a leader, I need this position filled. But I find a guy who's perfect at this, but I'm trying to force him into this other space. Oh. Uh, so maybe uh just really be patient and uh learn your people, lead from the front. You know, that's a big thing in mind. Don't ask people to do stuff you're not willing to do, and it's good to have your people see you do it. You know, if you go, hey guys, I'm not there's many times I can tell you I was absolutely exhausted, give out. Um, I guess the other one I didn't I or forgot to mention was uh mobile field force that I was in charge of for a while, and I was saying, hey guys, I'm I'm beat. And uh you don't have to go, you can all leave, but I'm gonna go and continue and go do this. And then everybody's usually like, Hey LT, we're I'm with you. We're gonna keep going too. And that's a good feeling when you're leading people that uh you know everybody's tired as you are, or if not more so, and they still follow you.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Yeah, and yeah, I've seen you do that. I've seen you teaching classes all day, and you're just smoked. It's one class after like at the mock or something, and you're just smoked, but you just keep going. You're right, you don't slow down. You're still in there putting hands on so that they can see how to do it. So yeah, I I can see that you lead that way. The other thing that you mentioned was putting them in the right spot, and that's not just always for the team. Um, putting someone in a place where they're successful. Yeah. Yeah, that's important too. Uh when a person's successful, they feel good about their self, they're gonna work harder, they're gonna be a better team member. So yeah, I think you hit that on the head there.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Yeah, no, that's all right. Uh, it's um it's a lot to pour in it, and it's hard. You don't always feel like it, but you're right, Mike. When anytime me and you were trained together, I I watch you and I I I see guys who I meet across the country, and I'll say, hey, this this is Mike Cantrell, look what he's doing. And then I try that raises the bar, and I go, you know what? I want to pour out everything I've got and everything I do. And I think a lot of times it shows when people when they do that. So it's not just clicking a box or checking a box, it's really putting time in. And and while we're here, we talk about leadership as something I strive to do and didn't do enough. Uh and I try to now, uh, at this point, is when people need to talk and there's something going on, take time to stop and be in that moment and listen to what they have to say. Because a lot of times they mean telling you, I'm struggling, or I need to do this, or my passion and goals are over here, and you can help not only get them in the right place, but uh, or if not guide them to where, hey, you know what? I think you're more cut out to do this. Have you ever tried that? Well, no, I never have. Well, how about try that? You're right, I love that. That's what I want to do, really. And then and then you're kind of helping people, but you can't if you're always on the phone. Give me a second, it's the phone, and you're you're running too fast.

Teaching Tips That Keep Students Engaged

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Absolutely. Oh so I've I've asked you questions about being a leader because I've seen you lead, and I know that you've led those teams. The other thing you're really good at, and I told I said this at the beginning, is I love watching you teach. You are a good trainer. People get it when you're in the classroom. And uh so what would be some uh I don't know, tips, tricks? What would you what would you tell a trainer? What what do you try to do when you're teaching a class and what would you tell others?

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Uh I I I think some maybe some good tips is uh or or could be to really try to connect to your students. Um you know there's one thing about giving the information, pushing the information out, and you you do want to do that, but really to build a connection with each student. Um and and like you said, I I've kind of I've read a few books and I started studying books when right before I ended law enforcement, I got into uh interview and interrogations, and I like reading body language and micro expressions, but there's a lot said about making personal connections in class. When you're teaching to try to get on a one-on-one level with and you're like, Well, I'm sorry, but I have 34 students. I get it. We're in there eight hours. At least try to get their names. People love it when you learn their names, when you interact with them, when you really uh you really you really want to be not stale and not reading word for word off PowerPoint, but entertaining. You want to captivate them with what you're saying if you can. And I understand some things you can't. It's hard to do. Uh, but when you have an opportunity, let the passion that you have for what you're teaching let people see it. Let them let them feel it, let them see it. And and and it is uh it's not only captivating, it can be addictive.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

They'll be like, Yeah, that's what I want to do too. What are you doing? I don't know, but let's go do it.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

And you're like, yes. So uh that's I I would say that try to really interact and and uh don't don't be afraid to interact, don't be afraid to tell stories, and uh as long as it's relating to the subject matter. To help them relate to whatever you're teaching.

Implementing Pepperball With Follow-Up Coaching

SPEAKER_01 44:38

I think it is your passion that comes through. I think you're yeah, I think that hits the nail on the head with that. Uh people see that because you are passionate and you do care. Um so what's going on with you now? Uh what are you doing? What's uh what's making what's keeping Joe busy now? I know you're tired. Yeah, I didn't catch that. A little tired, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Traveling, uh so full-time uh director of implementation with Pepperball. I'm like, yeah, what is what is that? That's a fancy title, I guess, but uh it's uh I said, what am I doing? Uh so we started out, we are having distributors in Pepperball. They uh will fund or set the X amount of launchers, let's say 25 to 40 launchers aside, and we run a program where we are pushing into patrol, uh daily patrol for agencies. So we'll say we've got these, and would you like to do a 120 days? We'll come in there, do a user course. We're gonna teach you how to use these launchers every 30 days. I'm gonna be following back up. I'm gonna be calling you, I'm gonna be talking to you, we're gonna help you with your policy, create policy, show you not Joe's way, not pepperball way, but how are agencies across this country, uh, some of our top agencies utilizing this tool, being successful, and having the highest probability of success where their officers are safe, their suspects are safe. Let's find out the best way to do it and share that information. So we're doing that with the agencies, and then as they're building, using this in the field, uh, we are getting data back saying, okay, you're having success. And what about this? Why didn't this work? Nothing works 100% of the time. Uh, no technique or no tool. I just I feel that way. And um, I think if people think about it, everything's great, but we don't need to rely on it. But we teach certain tactics like uh, I'll say don't don't make a you know plan to fail, but have a plan of succession like an onion. We just keep rolling it back. I'll go from this to this. I'll be hey, maybe I'm using pepperball, maybe I'll fall back to taser, then canine, then but it keeps falling back, it keeps rolling back with a plan. So we're teaching them how to be successful. The end of the time period, about 120 days. We reevaluate with our command staff and see do they want to continue the program, or uh did it what did it not work out for their agency? Uh we have currently nine. We have nine going right now. Uh, one of them we're wrapping up, and they have had huge success. This is a new program that we've just started, and with that, I'm still working with the top 25 in the country. Um, as far as the agencies with uh teaching their instructor armor courses along with special weapons and tactics, uh, some specialty stuff corrections. Mellersville, West Virginia, gonna be there again this year for a cell extraction course. Uh, and dignitary protection. I'm still conducting some teaching a little bit, and on occasion to my special friends in North Carolina and a few other states, but I will go out and uh try to help them with some martial arts uh seminars when they do those. I'll be a special guest and come in and teach. But uh other than that, my wife and uh daughter keep me very busy with uh with family stuff, which is at the highest uh priority. That's number one. And uh so uh yeah, that's a little bit, a little touch of what I'm doing, but I'm traveling all over the country.

Writing A Kids' Book On The Side

SPEAKER_01 48:16

Yeah, yeah. We've run into each other a couple of times. Uh so maybe you want to talk, maybe you don't. I know you're working on a book. Is that getting closer? Oh, you had to mention that, right?

SPEAKER_02 48:27

Uh see that now the worlds collide. Now you those worlds don't collide, Mike. I'm here for one thing or another. I'll touch on the book. No, I I would, yeah. I'm working on a book. Uh it is uh dedicated to my daughter Juliet, and it is a it's a flower book, it's a kid's book. Wait a minute. So people I have people that know me from different you know forms are like, I can't believe this guy would write a children's book. And the others that uh know me from, you know, yeah, there we go. See, right? They'll say, oh, uh, he's an artist, he does photography and books. I can't see you're doing martial arts or anything, but it's the same. But we all have um we're uh we're complicated humans, I think. When you you look at it as far as we have different joys and different things, but yeah, I've got a uh book I'm still working out. Hopefully it'll be out uh by the end of the year, maybe. I'm hoping. With help from some friends, maybe we'll absolutely yeah, but we'll have it out. And so uh I'm doing that. I've got a few adventures in for um I've got some stuff going on on a YouTube channel and different things like that I've just started up.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

And uh so yeah, I'm staying I'm trying to stay uh not very busy, but it keeps me really busy.

Where To Find Joe Online

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Yeah, yeah, I understand completely. So if somebody wants to get a hold of you, whether it's uh I'll put the link to Pepperball, of course, and and Pepperball is the sponsor of the Prison Officer Podcast. Um I'll put a link to Pepperball on there if somebody wants to get a hold of you there. Uh are you on LinkedIn or anything where you'd like people to reach out if they're one of Yeah, of course. I'm on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

Yeah, you'll find me on there. And um uh again, I think I put my uh email address in there as well. If anybody, you know, needs anything in particular. I'll do my best. If I don't have an answer or don't know, I will reach out to someone. I'll find out who will. I didn't uh I forgot, didn't realize Pepperball was a uh, you know, helping out here and throwing in on the podcast. Uh so that's that's awesome too. So good. We'll shout out for Pepperball.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Absolutely. Well, I'll get that stuff put in the show notes. Thank you so much for stopping by and being part of the podcast. I appreciate it. I'm glad we got it done. And uh pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

Thanks for having me on, Mike. I really, really appreciate it, and uh can't wait to watch more of your shows. Thank you. I look forward to next time we get to work together, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

See you, brother. See ya. So stay on here, it's gonna do it.