120: Less Lethal Tools and the Threats Redefining Corrections - Interview w/Robert Sorensen

Two gym riots. Same tools. Completely different outcomes. That’s the pivot point Robert Sorensen brings to the table as we dive into less lethal tactics, executive buy-in, and the real cost of undertraining in corrections. Robert spent 27 years in government service—lieutenant, emergency preparedness officer, NTOA section chair, and internal affairs special agent—and he’s candid about fear, failure, and what finally worked.

We walk through the practical lessons that turned chaos into control: how inmate mindset dictates munition effectiveness, why tabletop drills and contingency planning decide outcomes, and the simple way to flip leadership from “no” to “go” on modern tools. Robert lays out the case for 40mm accuracy, not as a cool upgrade, but as a liability reducer that protects staff and inmates by making point-of-aim, point-of-impact a reality when it matters most.

From there, we confront today’s front-line threats. Fentanyl exposure has already taken lives, and Robert breaks down decon protocols and sodium-chlorite solutions designed to oxidize powders in seconds—plus a defense cleanse that shrinks OC and PAVA recovery from 30–40 minutes to minutes. Then we go vertical: drones are now the easiest path for contraband into secure facilities. Robert outlines entangling 40mm counter-UAS rounds and autonomous intercept systems that bring down drones with minimal collateral risk, along with the policy gaps and budget choices holding agencies back.

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Email Robert - rsorensen@sorite.com

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Chapters

• 0:00 Why Less Lethal Options Matter
• 2:15 Introducing Robert Sorensen
• 4:14 Path From Army MP To Corrections
• 9:24 Early USP Allenwood Realities
• 16:04 First Riot And Hard Lessons
• 22:29 Mindset Over Munitions
• 28:04 Building Correction-Specific Training
• 34:39 Winning Executive Buy-In
• 40:04 Transition To 40mm And Liability
• 46:34 Internal Affairs And Staff Corruption
• 53:44 Fentanyl Risks And Line-Of-Duty Loss

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:48

You know, in my 29 years of corrections, I've faced many situations where de-escalation wasn't enough to resolve the situation, and of course, uh lethal force was way out of the question. And that's where pepperball comes in, makes the difference. Pepperball gives you options, standoff distance, area saturation, the ability to resolve situations without actually going hands-on. I've deployed it multiple times, and it works. It creates space, it changes behavior, and it keeps everyone safer. As a pepperball master instructor, I've seen agencies transform their use of forced outcomes by adding this tool to their toolkit. It's not about being soft, it's about being smart and effective. If your agency is looking for a proven, less lethal solution that actually works in the real world, reach out to Pepperball, www.pepperball.com, and tell them the President Officer Podcast is. Hello, and welcome back to the President Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell. Today, my guest uh brings 27 years of government service and a wealth of tactical expertise to today's conversation. As the Corrections Section Chair for the National Tactical Officers Association, he's dedicated his career to training tactical officers from around the world, specializing in crisis management and emergency response. He's also a less lethal chemical agents and flash sound device instructor with NTOA, equipping teams with the skills they need for safe and effective operations in the most challenging environments. Beyond the training room, he serves as the director of strategic partnerships and agency liaison at the SOWRIT Company, where he continues to shape how agencies approach use of force standards, operational safety. His expertise spans the full spectrum of tactical operations from less lethal applications to the decim decontamination protocols. Always with an eye towards protecting both officers in public and high-stakes situations. Please welcome Robert Sorensen to the President Officer Podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 2:43

Hi, Robert. Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00: 2:46

Absolutely. Um, you know, in the Bureau, I always I knew your name. I got to take a class from you with the uh MTOA, FS uh Less Lethal class. Uh but I always heard your name because we were kind of worked in the same circles with disturbance control and less lethal stuff. And uh you were always one of those people I was looking up to and getting information from. So I'm really excited to get you on here, number one, and number two, to see you still in the business after retirement, keeping that going.

SPEAKER_01: 3:16

Uh absolutely. Um uh same same thing. I remember that class at USB Cain and it uh you guys came. That's I think you guys were activating Thompson at the time and uh and uh had you in that class. So it's it's a wonderful way to keep plugged in. And um, you know, when I start talking a little bit about my story, um you guys will kind of kind of see how that that teaching and that instructing kind of scratched an itch, if you will, of uh kind of how I wanted my career to go.

SPEAKER_00: 3:43

Excellent. Yeah. Well, that's how I like to start. Um I always ask how'd you get into corrections because that always fascinates me. None of us came into it the same way. So tell me how you got into corrections and how that path took you into your career.

SPEAKER_01: 3:56

It's actually wild. Um so I grew up in northeast Pennsylvania and out in the country. I was a country boy, did a lot of stuff out in the woods, and uh uh I was an eagle, I'm an Eagle Scout. Um, I was a lifeguard at uh Camp Tuscarora. So I spent a lot of my summers outside and and did a lot of those things with the scouting. Um always an outdoors kid and sports, all those types of things. So I uh uh when I graduated high school, um I wanted to be a biology teacher. I I really loved biology, I loved nature, loved uh loved all that stuff outside. This is right, wild. So I thought I was gonna be a biology teacher. So I went to uh I went to school for one year, went to East Strasbourg University, um, and uh you know, my mom and dad didn't have a ton of money, and they said, hey, uh, you know, we uh I have I have six siblings in my family. There's six of us. So yeah, big family. Um and we're all really close, and uh, you know, we all stay in touch and we're we're still really close for this day. But money's always an issue. And so I uh I joined the Army, uh I joined the reserves, Army reserves, and that was going to be my avenue for me to be able to pay for my own college and go that route. Sure. Uh the re the recruiter convinced me that uh being a military policeman was uh a route that needed to go, and so I said, Yeah, you know what, that sounds interesting, so I'll I'll I'll be an MP. I went to Fort McClellan, Alabama in November of 1996, I believe it was, and graduated in March of 1997. I started uh uh uh during that time when I came back home, one of the guys in my unit, I worked at I was at the 28th MP company out in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. And one of the gentlemen out there worked at FCI Loreto. Uh it's pretty pretty close to Johnstown, not too far away. He worked at Loretto. And he said, Hey, uh, you know, why don't you put in for the the Federal Bureau of Prisons? It pays really well. Um it's a great avenue for other federal law enforcement. And I'm like, you know what, maybe I'll give that a shot. And so I applied to USP uh Allenwood, and it's right in the middle. Right. Well, I should apply for Allenwood. I didn't I didn't realize it was a complex. Right, right. I I got hired in 1997 at uh USP Allenwood. Uh I was one of JT Holland was the warden, and I was one of the last classes, I guess, before he retired or left. And then I want to say it was Morton Fennello was the warden there when I when I actually started. Okay. So started at USP Allenwood, and I'm scratching my head as uh I remember my first weekend, they're like, oh my gosh, I'm going to gladiator school. Um what am I getting myself into, right? Because we all see it on TV and we we all kind of have our own impression of what jail is going to be like or prison life's gonna be like. Sure. So I'm not gonna lie to you, I was a little bit uh apprehensive and a little bit nervous because I got picked to work at the USP, the Mac Security. Uh, probably because of my military background and and some of that stuff. Um, but some of my dearest friends and some of the best guys that I've ever worked with, some of the best lieutenants that I've ever learned from, were at USP Allenwood at that time. Uh so I started there in 1997 and I decided that I wanted to be a lieutenant. I thought I would, that's the route I want to go. I want to be a lieutenant. So 2005 I applied and I got promoted to FCI Raybrook up in uh Lake Placid, New York. So my wife that was a big change. So my wife and I uh packed up our two children. We had two kids at the time, and uh we moved to Lake Placid, New York, and uh it's cold up there. Beautiful country, but it's cold. And uh so I learned a lot about being a supervisor of what not to do and and and kind of some hard hard lessons learned that way. That's an old school institution, yeah, but it taught me some valuable lessons. And so I uh I where I grew up in northeast Pennsylvania, just north of Scranton, Pennsylvania, um USP Canaan was coming online, another maximum security penitentiary. And so I applied to go down there. So in 2007, I was promoted to GS11 lieutenant at uh USP Canaan. And so a lot of those lessons that I learned from being uh a GS9 junior lieutenant at FCI Raybrook, I I brought them to USP Canaan, and I knew how I needed to act a little bit differently as far as a supervisor goes. Right. Right, yeah, so yeah and I'm sure you understand exactly what I'm talking about, and a lot of your listeners do that there's a transition from being an officer to being a supervisor, and and understanding that you don't know it all, and understanding that humility, um, you need to learn to be humble and let your take your ego out of it. And so those lessons are gonna come to me later on through through my time at Canaan. So um I started in January of 2007 at USB Canaan, and uh I went right to that evening watch shift. In November of 2007 was my first major disturbance at USB Canaan. Uh I had a uh big huge gym incident, big huge gym riot. That uh I was the evening watch lieutenant and uh taught me some valuable lessons. I was scared to death, Mike. Um I remember standing outside of that that door, and I don't know if you've ever seen that video, um, but I'm more than happy to share. I we we show it once in a while in our NTOA classes. But I I put that out there and I learned that uh I didn't know what I didn't know. Um and never once did I teach my officers about less lethal. Never, never did we do any kind of contingency training or tabletop exercises from the time I got there to that in that November. And so I learned some lessons on that first incident that hey, I need to start training my guys and gals, and I need to train myself on on how to deal with some of this stuff. So that was a valuable learning lesson for me, a very humbling experience for me. It worked out in our favor, and we did that correctly. Um, but I credit that to the staff that were with me that night. I a lot of those senior officers helped walk me through um some of that stuff. But I I was scared to death, Mike. Scared to death of of uh mate. There were 200 inmates fighting and with weapons and and all kinds of stuff. So that happened in in November of 2007. I was kind of labeled as the Black Cloud lieutenant because uh seems like anything that bad happens, uh kind of happened on my shift. But that's okay because you learn a lot through through those experiences. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh fast forward to I believe it was 2009, 2010 time frame. We have another gym disturbance. And a little bit different this time. Instead of inmates fighting with each other, I get a call on the Daywatch Operations Lieutenant, and uh they say, Hey Bob, you need or hey LT, you need to come on down to the gym. Uh, I got groups of inmates kind of kind of grouping up on either side. So I'm like, this is deja vu all over again. This is November. And uh what was different about this one is we had a brand new captain come in by the name of Michael Brecken. And I know I'm sure you know Michael Brecken very well. Yeah, um, but I I credit Michael Brecken with a lot of the stuff that I learned. Uh Robert Farley was an associate warden at the time. Uh, dear friends of mine to this day, I speak to both of those guys um quite often. Um so I learned a lot from them. And uh uh I go down to the gym and I see groups of inmates on either side. And so again, we introduced some less lethal stuff and it goes in our favor. And looking back at those incidences, I learned that the mindset, and I've said this before in a couple other other podcasts and a lot of my training classes, I talk about less lethal a lot. And we threw stingball uh stingball grenades in that that gymnasium. And a stingball is a stingball, it's gonna do the same thing no matter if I'm inside or I'm outside. It's gonna the less lethal tool is gonna be the tool. Right. Well, what changed in the first incident, the I took like one stingball and all the inmates got down on the ground. The second incident that we had, Mike, uh, we threw eight stingballs in there and they did not get down on the ground, didn't have the same effect.

SPEAKER_00: 12:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:34

And so that yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 12:36

I remember Pepper Ball when it first came into Leavenworth. The first time the inmates had never heard that pop, pop, pop, pop. I mean, they hit the ground like we were shooting guns at them, you know. And then the second time they realized, oh, I could take a couple of hits before I go down. They didn't go down as quick.

unknown: 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:52

So they definitely get used to it.

SPEAKER_01: 12:53

They get used to it, but what what I learned changed is the mindset of the inmates, right? And the first incident that I had, the first disturbance or riot, whatever you want to call it, um, they were mad at each other and they were fighting at each other and they were looking for a reason to stop. And so we were that reason to stop. We we were kind of that lifeline to give them an excuse to stop fighting, right? Because some of them aren't committed to doing what they're doing. The second incident, we were doing mass shakedowns because Mike Brecken was coming in as our captain, and we were trying to clean out the institution and doing mass shakedowns on each each unit. And this unit particularly did not think that uh we had the right to take some of the stuff that we were taking. And so they were gonna they were gonna go against us. And uh so they were mad at us. So their focus was us. And so that makes a big, huge difference when we start looking at less lethal, when we start talking about tactics, is the mindset of your individual um and who they're focused at and how effective these tools are. So having contingency plans, um uh I I learned from that. So that was another lesson learned through my career. So fast forward to 2012, I was promoted to an emergency preparedness officer. And uh as an EPO, you know, you you well know you're very familiar with what an EPO is and what they do. But an EPO, and that was probably one of my favorite jobs uh in the Bureau because I was involved in all the crisis management teams, finding training, creating training exercises for them, buying gear, finding gear, all that, all that fun stuff that we like to do. Sure. So as an EPO, I I got to do a lot of that stuff. 2013, actually, my first Les Lethal class was uh a manufacturer class, and uh, and when I got promoted to EPO, uh I went to an NTOA Les Lethal class in Ashtabula, Ohio, and it s changed my mindset. Uh manufacturers try to sell you stuff, and the NTOA class kind of really taught me why are you doing what you're doing when you're doing it? And that is a big thing for me is understanding that and teaching that, the understanding the tactics is a more tactics-driven class. The section chair at the time was a gentleman by the name of David Pearson. David Pearson was a lieutenant in Fort Collins, Colorado. And uh another sergeant, Mark Martinez, came to Canaan. I brought them guys out, though those guys out to Canaan for a less lethal class, and um, they taught the class. I'm like, wow, this is this is what I need to do. They said, Bob, you've done this class two or three times already. Why don't you we need we're looking for cadre members, why don't you join our cadre and we'll get you trained up and uh you know start teaching? So I started teaching with them in in like 2013 with the NTOA as a less lethal instructor. Um and I've been doing that ever since. I do about 10 classes a year. Sure. Just myself, with with Mark and Dave and uh a couple other two other guys that do it with us. A lot of lot of knowledge I learned from those guys, and I credit those guys with a lot of of uh of that knowledge that I kind of gained through the years. Um my outlook and really humbled me with the death of Eric Williams. Uh in in February of 2013, Eric was uh uh murdered inside USP Canaan by an up by an inmate, and I was the EPO. And I had uh a major mock exercise planned for that morning. I had I had an exercise planned that morning. And so a lot of the staff when they were responding thought that that was what the exercise was. Uh unbelievable, right? That would be something that you you would never you would never make that exercise. But that really changed me and and staff safety really became paramount to me, where I needed to train the guys and gals and give them the tools to hopefully change one person's mindset that that we do things a little bit safer. And so that really drove me into um into kind of where I am today and why I do what I do uh with the NTOA. Um five years ago, they asked me to take over the section chair for corrections and start developing uh classes and representing the NTOA and corrections because they understood in corrections that it's it's an untapped um area of law enforcement that we kind of get overlooked a lot. And and training is a big, big thing. And we always say we hear this before, you don't rise to the occasion, you fall to your level of training. And if you're not you're not providing your guys and gals with quality training, then how do you expect them to do things under stress? You just you're just not going to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00: 17:39

Uh, quality training that is correction specific. That's what you know. For years I got thrown in the, oh, we got an extra slot here in this law enforcement clash, you can go there, you can listen to this, but it never had it never fell into the the stories or the lessons with what I was doing. So that's great that they're looking specifically to give corrections that training. That's one of the things command presence and alita have been working on also, is to get in there and and give something to corrections specifically.

SPEAKER_01: 18:13

Absolutely. And and absolutely, yeah, it's it's uh it's a big thing. And that's you know, that was one of the hardest things when I started teaching with the NTOA in the less lethal world, is most of those guys are street cops, SWAT cops. Yep. And so when I would talk about correction stuff, they they wouldn't get it. And so it also made me kind of change my mindset is you know, less lethal, whether it be an impact munition, a flashbang, uh chemical agent, that's a tool. And and what you got to understand is what tool fits, what tool and tactic fits for the environment that I'm in. And when you look at an environment, it could be uh the weather, it could be a jail cell, it could be um uh a trailer park, it could be a vehicle. It doesn't matter, but once you understand what the what the tools and the tactics are, I can start plugging those things in as concepts into different scenarios, whether it be a corrections-based environment. And I I will tell you this that correctional officers are probably and I've heard this from sheriffs and I've heard this from the SWAT cops, those that have worked corrections first really credit their um credit their experience or credit their um ability to be able to communicate to those years spent in corrections because that's one of the things that I think is really strong is our ability to communicate and and to understand what's happening around us because we're surrounded by that stuff. And if you're not a good communicator, you know, you you're gonna have some issues. So we have your question.

SPEAKER_00: 19:43

Yeah, while we're while we're talking about all this, you know, one of my biggest challenges was always leading up with less lethal, because I had this breadth of knowledge that I had developed, and I went to the classes and I'd I'd I'd used it and I wasn't scared of it, and I knew uh when it came in place, you know, how much how much safer it made staff. But then I had the associate wardens and the wardens that were absolutely scared of put me letting me pull a trigger on something. Then I'd get one that didn't like breaking. I'm sure you had no problem whatsoever explaining to him what you needed. Uh but then I had others that had come up through maybe another part of the bureau or another agency, and they were literally scared. And I had to train associate wardens, wardens. How much did you run into that?

SPEAKER_01: 20:31

Oh, a lot. So what I did is is um once I understood OODA loop, right? You understand Boyd's loop, or you understand how to orient and the side act, all that observe orient as the side and act. Right. It's not only for tactical situations, it's also for administration. And once I understand how to uh I don't want to say manipulate, but play politics, sure. What I would do is once a year, I would take all the exec staff out to the range and we would lay out all the less lethal stuff out there, and we'd give them a short little class, and then we'd let them pull the trigger on a lot of those things, and we let them let them play with those toys and play with those tools, if you will. Sure. So they had a better understanding of what they were and what they were uh capable of. So not only training your staff, but it's really important that you train your executives, whether it be your chiefs, whether it be your city managers, whoever it is, they need to understand what those things are capable of and understand that it is a less lethal, less lethal tool. There is still a chance that some you know bad things can happen when used incorrectly and and not having the correct amount of training. 40 millimeter for the Bureau of Prisons. We had 37 millimeter for the longest time. Oh my god, I just lost you. There you are. Sorry, guys.

SPEAKER_00: 21:44

40 millimeter for the Bureau of Prisons.

SPEAKER_01: 21:46

Yeah, so 40 millimeter for the Bureau of Prisons uh was everybody was dead set against it. We had 37 millimeter for the longest time with those stun rounds. Right. And so when I started teaching with the NTOA, I saw 40 millimeter and played with it a lot. And I'm like, man, we need that in a bureau. And so I went to the guys in DC. I said, we need the 40 millimeter. And they're like, why? And I said, well, it's better. It's just better. And they're like, well, yeah, we've had 37 millimeter for so long, we don't need it. We're not gonna go that route. Some individuals get promoted some years down the road. And uh Brad Trait being the correctional services administrator, I credit Brad. Brad and I started, uh, he started a little bit after. He started at School Kill and then transferred up to Allenwood. And so we worked a lot of time together. I'm really good friends with Brad. And so Brad being in the position where he was, I Said, Brad, we need to go to 40 millimeter. But back to my OODA loop and training the exec staff, I understood now liability is a big thing. And I told them that if I don't know where that less lethal round is going, that that beanbag round, if you will, if I pull the trigger on that and I hit an inmate in a part of the body where I don't intend to, the Bureau is going to be liable for lawsuits, and we just don't want that. I said, 40 millimeters, point of aim, point of impact. So I brought these individuals out to Fort Dix, New Jersey, and I set up targets. This was during a crisis management training. And I set up 40 millimeter and I set up 37 millimeter. And I said, go ahead and pull the trigger on, and I have this video. I said, pull the trigger on those four different beanbag rounds and try to hit that target, and not one of those rounds hit. Oh, yeah. Pick up that 40 millimeter, and here's one round that the officer has. It can go from 1.5 meters all the way out to 50 meters. And it was point at aim point. And I said, that limits your liability. And so I helped with Christopher Bergen, Todd Craig, all those individuals at the right time at the right place in Washington, DC, to help transition the bureau to the 40 millimeter.

SPEAKER_00: 23:46

So big improvement. Big improvement.

SPEAKER_01: 23:53

When you use correctly, it's a very, very safe, less lethal tool, launching system to uh to use. Absolutely. A lot safer than like a 12 gauge or you know some of those other tools that we have out there. Um so that that was a big passion of mine and um to go that route. So my last going back to finishing up my bureau career, and then we'll kind of talk a little bit about um what what I've been up to after. Sure. 2020, um I decided I wanted to kind of make a change and I wanted to go down to Washington, D.C. and work in internal affairs. So I became a special agent in internal affairs uh for my last three years and um did some investigations. Prior to that, I was uh on the FBI task force in Scranton PA. I was one of the uh one of the Bureau guys that got the opportunity to be on the Safe Streets Task Force with the FBI, and that allowed us to um maybe pick and choose if an inmate had a weapon in a jail. It's not it's not really sexy for a U.S. attorney to prosecute, right? Um and so they don't really spend a lot of time on that, but that might be something near and dear that we need to make a uh statement or we need to prosecute a visitor for bringing in drugs. And and being able to be on that task force allowed me to start my own cases, go have access to the United States Attorney's Office and say, hey, we really need to uh look at this, and we this is one that we need to prosecute to uh because of A, B, and C. And so doing that um opened up other doors, and I and that's why it led me to be uh wanting to go into internal affairs down in Washington, D.C. And um kind of kind of looking at that. I don't I don't have any time for dirty staff, uh bringing in stuff that really jeopardizes um um jeopardizes all staff. You know, you know, the day after Eric Williams was murdered, uh, we lost uh Lieutenant Oswaldi down in Puerto Rico, and that was because of dirty staff and um cell phones and and the work that he was doing to stop that. And and he was he was doing wonderful things and got ambushed on the way home. Uh and so I'm very passionate about staff safety. I'm very passionate about giving staff the tools, and um and uh yeah, that's uh that's a big difference.

SPEAKER_00: 26:12

Not too long ago we were talking because there's a lot. The newspapers are full of contraband being brought in by staff right now across the country. And uh somebody made the statement that, you know, well, well, that was just cigarettes, or that was just this. And I said, if they'll bring that in, I don't know what they'll bring in. If we bring in cigarettes, you'll bring in a gun. What's the difference to them?

SPEAKER_01: 26:32

I was on that that uh ESF 13 team that when we went to uh MCC New York. And we got uh yeah, I was in the unit when the officers said, Hey, uh, I we were setting up one of those cell sense towers to, you know, people walk through, it's like a metal detector. Um so I was in the unit with uh one of the regional guys, uh Tim Frontino actually was the regional EPO. So Tim and I were in the that unit, and uh one of the sort guys goes, Hey guys, you need to come up here. We found something in the cell. Go up there and we found a five-shot 22 long rifle Derringer with I believe there's four rounds in it. I never in a million years, Mike, did I ever think that I would see an actual gun inside of a jail, and there it was in front of me, um, plain as day, and that was brought in front by a staff member.

SPEAKER_00: 27:20

Um so early on in my career at Missouri State Penn, I came in on evening watch and on day watch. The orderly did the laundry in this laundry room for the SEG unit, and they let him out to do that, and he came to Lieutenant and said, You gotta go look behind the dryer. And Lieutenant walked over there, and a guy had brought in a sawed off shotgun in four rounds and hit it and was gonna put it out there on an evening watch. My my whole entire career I've wondered, who do you think was gonna get shot first? You've got the keys, buddy, you know, but uh I I don't I don't even I've never had the ability to fathom. It's hard to wrap your head around for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 28:01

It's hard to wrap your head around why staff do some of those things that they do anyway, you know. Uh once you go down that road of getting compromised, it's uh And it all starts.

SPEAKER_00: 28:11

It all starts little bitty stuff. You know, it's little bitty stuff, it grows to you know, cigarettes, it grows to drugs, it grows to whatever. Once they get you trapped, you're you'll do anything.

SPEAKER_01: 28:22

Yeah, the stuff I saw in internal affairs uh and and some of the cases I worked on um blew me away. Wow me away. So when did you retire? So I retired in January of uh 2024, uh after so 27 years I did in the bureau. And uh those three years in internal affairs, I loved them. I love doing it, but that was enough. Um that was enough. And uh so I said, let me uh let me run my numbers, let me see uh kind of what's going on and uh see what other avenues I can pursue in the public sector um outside of the bureau. And um that's kind of kind of where I'm at today here. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:02

So I know you're working with some companies. Tell me about uh what you're doing out there. You're still involved in corrections, you're still keeping people safe.

SPEAKER_01: 29:11

Yep, I still teach for the NTOA. I got two classes coming up here in March uh that we're gonna be we're on the road doing one out in Utah and one in uh Long Island, New York. So I got two classes coming up here for Les Lethal Instructor. Um so I I continue to do that. We've established four or five uh corrections-based classes that are gonna be rolling out this year. Uh we've we've partnered with uh Gypstick. It's the Georgia State public safety um, it's like a uh they're Fletsi, if you will. They have a driving range, they have uh numerous ranges down there. So the Gypstick down in Georgia, down in Forsyth, Georgia. Um that's where we're kind of gonna kick things off with the NTOA. Uh they have their own jail cells down there, jail, they have a courthouse, so we can start kind of integrating all those types of things. And they have it's like Fletzi, honestly. It's like it's like Georgia's Fletsi. So those are gonna be rolling out this year. Um, we're gonna also be doing some web-based stuff with crime scene. Um, I got some guys that were uh wonderful with crime scene uh uh processing. That's not 100% my bag, but but there's a need and uh some intelligence. Uh we have some counter terrorism individuals that are are gonna go ahead and do some classes for us um to uh to to help local jails don't get uh access to that information. And and so if we can provide that to them, that's that's a bonus. So we're doing that. Uh I continue to do that. I got uh approached by a company called Roborounds back when I first retired, and RoboRounds created a round that was an anti-drone, anti-robotic uh center fire rounds with nine millimeter to stop robots, which I thought was okay, uh that's kind of odd. Um, but I understand if you see if you look at the news, you see uh what Tesla's doing with Optimus robots and and all this other type stuff going on. And so it's really an anti-uh electronic um round that they were working on. And then they had a 68 caliber um ball, which is like a pepper ball paint ball, sure specifically for anti-drone. And I said, now that is something that is a problem for the Bureau. Um, you know, we see all the drone drops with contraband and keeping staff safe, so I said, I think I can help there.

unknown: 31:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 31:28

They also had a round for breaking tempered glass, and it was filled with powdered bismuth at the time, and and really heavy round. I tested it out and I'm like, this doesn't, it's not working. Um and we talked about looking at uh spark plugs. And if you look at a spark plug and you crush up that ceramic, and you take pieces of that ceramic, I don't know if you've ever seen YouTube videos of that, you take those pieces of ceramic and you throw at tempered glass, it just shatters it. And so, why can't we do that inside of a ball? And so that's kind of what we looked at doing, and we created a round ball, right? And I tested, I went to Safe Light Autoglass and uh did a lot of a lot of testing on that and and developed that glassbreaker round. Approach Pepperball. We approached Pepperball and uh the Baltimore, the prison officer podcast. Which Pepperball is the leader in high pressure air, the the best of the best out there. So I I knew that we wanted to partner with them. And so they licensed that round from RoboRounds, and you'll you see that now they're selling it, it's called in the VXR uh shatter round. That is that round that we designed, and it's and it's really kind of cool to see some of the stuff that you worked on from uh infancy to where it is now, and it's a round that uh the officers need out there on the street. So worked with RoboRounds for a little while and decided that um uh I needed to kind of transition to do something different. And I was at the National Conference in Washington, D.C. this past year, and I came across a booth at the trade show uh from a company called So Right, based out of Nashville, Tennessee. And they make a product called Decon. They make three products that uh that I'll talk about, but the one that really, really piqued my interest was called Decon. It's a purple top. And it and it claimed to oxidize fentanyl, uh, xylazine, meth, cocaine, um uh drugs, narcotics, within 60 seconds. And I'm like, wow. Because we know what happened at USP Atwater last year with Officer Fisher, right, in the mailroom overdosed on uh uh drugs that were being sent into an inmate, uh probably fentanyl-based, and and uh they credited that line of duty death to him. So another officer had to lose her life because of um not having the right tool. So I saw that purple top, and I'm like, oh my gosh, the Bureau of Prisons has to have that. We uh actually all prisons have to have that. Police officers have to have that on them. Right. That's a tool that if you come across a powder or trace amount that you don't know what it is, I can spray that down and through the the method of process, it oxidizes it and makes it inert. And I'm like, okay, I I need to see testing because if it says if I'm gonna put my name on this and and kind of look at it, I need to see that. Well, they spent over$300,000 on testing with Triple Clinics Laboratory, DEA accredited labs, like uh M1R1, I think it is, or it's another spectrometry clas uh laboratory. They spent a lot of money to um show that it actually does what it says it does. And so all that is on their website. If you go to so right.com, you can go under proof. All that testing is there with it. You can see okay.

SPEAKER_00: 34:54

We'll put their website in the show notes too. So we can get there.

SPEAKER_01: 34:57

Yeah, and so their their main ingredient is sodium chlorite. So the name SORIT comes from sodium chlorite.

SPEAKER_00: 35:07

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01: 35:08

And uh the their first product was is a disinfectant. And I don't know if you can see that, but I actually use it here at the house. I don't know if it'll come in focus. I'm out of focus, but anyway, you can go. Yeah, it's uh it's her disinfectant, which kills viruses, bacteria within 15 seconds. So no other no other disinfectant does that as far as jails go. And and the main ingredient is sodium chloride. And so uh one of the gentlemen that was using the disinfectant says, What does this do? It was a sheriff. He goes, What does this do on drugs and narcotics? And and uh autumn Ryan, the the CEO and founder of the company says, I don't know, let's find out. And so she asked her chief scientist, and the chief scientist says, Well, man, it'll it'll obliterate it. It's a it's a sodium chloride's an oxidizer. It's safe, right? It's non-toxic, it's non-reactive, so you can mix chemicals and do those types of things, and it's safe. It doesn't uh degrade nylon, it doesn't degrade rubber, so it's as safe as water. The EPA uh puts it as a category of water, yes, very interesting. And so it obliterates it. So by the chemist being able to tweak a little bit of the uh ingredients inside of there, made it more effective on oxidizing the fentanyl. And so that's where they came up with that product. Right. In the process, it's a very good degreaser as well. Sodium chloride is a very good degreaser because of the oxidation. And so, being in the less lethal world, they make another one, another product called defense cleanse. It's a blue top, it has a blue top to it. Right. And and when they approached me and said, Hey, we want you to look at uh the defense cleanse when you get sprayed with OC or CS, any kind of chemical agent, bear spray. Um, it's very effective on that. And me being skeptical, like, okay, here's another manufacturer saying our product takes away, because you know as well as I do.

SPEAKER_00: 36:59

We've been through this before.

SPEAKER_01: 37:00

We've been through it, right? And none of them work. And what do we always fall back to is baby shampoo. Johnson's baby shampoo has always been, but it if I get sprayed with OC, it takes me 30 minutes, 30, 40 minutes, to kind of be able to function where I can get behind a wheel of a car and drive. So when we do our classes, we have to factor that time in there whenever somebody needs to be sprayed or have a have an exposure with that. And so there was no good way. So I said, okay, I'll I'll try out your defense cleanse and see what happens. And uh, no kidding, that stuff works. When used correctly with their their protocol, they have wipes, you wipe off uh the OC, and there's a uh a three-ounce spray that you spray, very good degreaser, your eyes are open in three minutes. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:45

And so uh OC tears me up. I've been doing this for a year, but the next day I've got sunglasses on in class.

SPEAKER_01: 37:52

Oh, so this this is and I'm a I'm a firm believer because I've tested it and actually uh there's videos of me spraying people with it, uh spraying people with OC and then doing the protocol on them. Um in 10 minutes, Mike, you are you are be able to be behind a uh uh vehicle driving. Two hours you wouldn't even know you got sprayed. Yeah. I'm a true believer in that, and it's because of the sodium chloride, it's because of the chemistry behind it. Um and so we're we're really kind of getting that out there.

SPEAKER_00: 38:22

I just watched a video that you guys did during Shop Show. Had uh Chris Carey from Pepper Ball, Alex, he's out of St. Louis, uh forgot the name of that company right off. I'll put it in the notes.

SPEAKER_01: 38:34

Pemplar? Is it Templar Tactica?

SPEAKER_00: 38:36

Yep, yep. I've met him before. And uh yeah, so I got to watch him get sprayed. Yeah. And uh yeah, yep, he comes right out of it. So tell me the difference. Because here's where I go now, because I work for pepperball. Pava is not oil-based. So does it work on pava? And why does it work on pava?

SPEAKER_01: 38:56

So it still works on pava because of uh the ingredients in it. Now, pava affects your lungs a lot more, right? You're gonna get that effect inside of your lungs. Um, but pepperball is working with us. That's why Chris was there, uh, because it's very effective on pava. It takes away that burn. Um, it opens up your pores and and um oxidizes that pava, oxidizes that that's so it oxidizes the powder that's on your skin, on your takes away the burn on your skin. Now, we all know pava, that dust, is gonna get in your lungs. Yeah, and I'm not gonna inhale the inhale the yeah it's safe to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 39:30

I wouldn't recommend it, but um but even with pava, if once you get out of the cloud, you give it a few good coughs and you'll get rid of that out of your lungs. It's not gonna last like OC does. But on the skin, as long as it's there, it's going to burn.

SPEAKER_01: 39:44

Yes. Yep. So uh we they have wipes and they have um uh the spray that when worked in conjunction, and either one by themselves are very, very effective. But when you do the protocol where you wipe it off first and then spray, um, man, you are you are good to go. And Chris Carey's a big believer. Yeah, um, with my area here, so he's a great, great guy. He's uh um very knowledgeable and and you know as well as I do. You being a master instructor for Pepper Ball know how effective uh Pepperball is.

SPEAKER_00: 40:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:15

So so Sol Right is that that company that does that, and um partnered with uh a couple of those big we're partnering now with um some of the big medical groups, ambulances, um and getting it out there. Right. We have uh some meetings set with some big big uh federal agencies. Uh actually I know the CEOs in Washington, D.C. today meeting with some uh three-letter agencies and stuff out there to get this product out there because it's pretty amazing what it does, the fentanyl, um uh the defense cleanse, the disinfectant. It's uh it's a wonderful, wonderful tool.

SPEAKER_00: 40:52

Of course, the first question that comes to mind right now in in our uh society, is this gonna be for public use or are we gonna keep it within the law enforcement, within the emergency services, that type of stuff?

SPEAKER_01: 41:06

Great question. So you could definitely go to their website, but there are local distributors. Uh the disinfectant and the defense cleanse are available for anybody to buy. Um the decon, we are gonna keep that to law enforcement because um there is a protocol that that needs to be done. Because fentanyl is a dangerous substance, narcotics are dangerous. And if you and if you're not using or not trained on how to use it or what what you could do, you can actually aerosol the fentanyl and inhale it. So there's a there's a process and a training that needs to be done. That's why we have a wipe that we'll we'll place over the powder and then we'll spray it with uh with the actual canister and make it wet. And we always say keep it from aerosolizing and doing that. So there's there's a process when you come across a dangerous substance like fentanyl. But however, we are tweaking that that uh and we're coming out with something called decon daily, and that should be hitting the shelves where where I can buy it. And and the the question that you ask is is do you decon when you get home? Like think about when you got home from work and you'd wear your boots inside, or you know, you work in a hospital, you wear your boots inside, and your little kids are crawling on the floor. You know, we're they're coming out with a decon daily where you can spray yourself down, even if you don't know you came in contact with any of that stuff, but it'll make you safe. You can spray your boots, spray your equipment, spray your all that kind of stuff. And so, yes, that is going to be available to the public. Um, kids going to college, uh you know, parents were concerned about that type of stuff. Uh, germs, MERSA, um, COVID, all that type of stuff is uh that that is available to the public. Cool.

SPEAKER_00: 42:44

That's just uh I mean, that's stuff that we didn't even think about 10 years ago that that would be there. Or that we needed some of it.

SPEAKER_01: 42:51

I didn't even know, yeah, 100%. I didn't even know we needed it. I didn't know it existed um and until I saw it. And then um I reached out to them and said, How can I help you? Because I need you to help me. Um officer safety is huge for me. After Eric Eric uh died and and all those things, and and uh you know, going through that as a staff member, it's it's not good. And uh, I hope nobody, I hope nobody has to do that. And so as a trainer, um as an instructor, that scratched that itch of me being a biology teacher. I can teach, but I can also change lives and I can save lives. And and I came to realize that if I could change one person, Mike, to do things a little bit safer, better, then then we were successful. And and I've said that numerous times, and I truly believe that that we get this one person at a time, and then it spreads. And so SoWright with this product um is an avenue for that. And their motto is saving lives. They're they're out there to save lives, and they're making it affordable to do so, um, and and and available to the public. So that's why I love that company. Another company that I've uh been in with is is a company called Helix Defense. Helix Defense makes a 40 millimeter round that is an anti-drone. Okay. Uh so it's uh when you think about anti-drone rounds, you need something, especially when you're over prisons or you're over um metropolitan areas, uh, you need something that has zero collateral damage. I can't be throwing up shotgun rounds in the city or over a prison. Um, and so the round that they have it entangles rotors, it's a more of an entanglement type device. Um and it is very, very cool. Where they can either catch that drone and it'll fall safely to the drown with a parachute, or we can tangle the round and and uh fall from there. So um kind of got them into some connections that I have with FIFA, and FIFA is looking for counter-UAS solutions, and um some so they're gonna be uh uh one of the solutions that FIFA's looking at to using. FAA is always an issue, and we gotta kinda gotta watch out for FAA and um and and what authorities we have, but the Bureau of Prisons and uh some of those other entities with contraband drones needs a solution like this as well. So again, back to saving lives, stopping dirty staffs, stopping the contraband, stopping the guns entering the jails, and making our staff safer. And that's that's my ultimate goal.

SPEAKER_00: 45:24

Yeah. How far are we from having a drone? I think we already have it, it just hasn't happened. Uh how far are we from having a drone pick up somebody off the yard and carry them out?

SPEAKER_01: 45:35

That's you know what? I think I think we're there. Obviously, we haven't we haven't seen that. Some of those drones are very large and the rotors on the sort. Yep. Um, so I I hope we didn't give anybody any ideas by talking about it, but uh you know, why not do that as you know, we've seen helicopters in our careers. We've seen uh, you know, uh Lewisburg when when I was at Lewisburg break before I started at Lewisburg, um, there was that the whole scheme to have a helicopter come in and and pick up those guys off the yard there. The FBI stopped that. Puerto Rico, I know uh Puerto Rico State, there was uh we had an inmate that was uh uh picked up off the yard from a helicopter escape. So I drone would be the next logical solution. But if they're dropping cigarettes and drugs and cell phones and guns, how how many guns are in jails that we don't know? It's g it scares me to think about that, and it's so easy to do that now, especially with the drones.

SPEAKER_00: 46:33

Yeah. It's uh we've had Todd Krager in here before, also, as you know, he's he's big into that.

SPEAKER_01: 46:39

Um one of my one of my mentors, Todd's one of my mentors.

SPEAKER_00: 46:42

Yeah, he's a great guy too. Um but we talked about that that is the next thing that we're gonna have to deal with in a in a big way. We don't control our air spaces and are and aren't allowed to control our air spaces anymore. Uh the FAA does that. And for a prison not to be able to control what's over it, it just opens it up for those drones. So that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01: 47:06

We're really we're really, really good at keeping fences and and walls and keeping uh on the ground, keeping people in and keeping people out. We're we're fairly good at that. Um but like you said, over top, we have no control over that over that uh type of stuff. And that's one of those things where the law has to keep up with the technology. And the technology is moving at such a fast pace that the legislature and all those things we have the authority to shoot down drones um in the federal in the DOJ, but I really think it's it until somebody does it and and it gets through the court process, people are scared to do that. Um, but what we're seeing in Ukraine, that's gonna be here in the states. Those types of things that they're learning over there, we're seeing it here. The cartels down on the border. I've been talking to Border Patrol guys and Bortech guys. The cartels are using drones as counterintelligence, and um bad things are happening with the use of drones because they're so cheap. Um, so we need to address that.

SPEAKER_00: 48:09

What's the distances of those 40 millimeter helix rails?

SPEAKER_01: 48:13

So you can they're adjustable, and it's what makes them kind of neat is um the user can adjust them from the 40 millimeter on the fly. Um, so you can go all 150 meters, 100 meters, 30 meters. You can set a time fuse on it. So it's basically anything you want. And they also have the ability, there's companies out there that I'm working with or we're working with that have um killer drones, if you will. They'll mount a quad 40 millimeter launcher on it, and you can put these munitions in there. It uh will detect around your airspace. So if a drone is coming, it'll know and this will launch automatically, autonomous, and that drone will go out and it'll actually take down that contraband drone or that that that dangerous drone. So that technology exists. We have to get it, we have to get it into these prisons' hands because that's where a lot of this contraband, a lot of stuff's happening. Um so I I do see a need for technology there. Um it it exists. We just have to we just have to have the right people say yes, we need it.

SPEAKER_00: 49:17

And the money and the budgets. I mean, uh prisons are expensive to run to start with because you're taking care of the inmates, you've got staff costs, and then when it comes time for this, where where do they always lack their or slack off on, you've seen it for years. Well, we're not gonna we're gonna shut down training for six months. We're gonna, you know, and and that type of stuff. So we've got to get people engaged to have them understand how important this is to have this technology. It's not just it's not just fun to play with. That this is stuff like you said that saves lives. If somebody drops a gun in there and an inmate uses it, five shots from a 22, that could be five dead officers.

SPEAKER_01: 49:55

You know, it it scares me to think about it. Like it it it makes a hair in the back on my next stand-up uh because I know it's there. I know it's there. You know, working in OIA, I had keys to the kingdom. You can see everything out there and all the stuff that's that's happened and happening currently. And we're fast forwarding at such a fast pace with technology and the stuff that they're able to do. It's very scary. You know, 3D print guns, uh, it's it just it blows your mind if you think about what could happen and what's going to happen. It's it's just a matter of time before those things happen. So we have to equip our officers with the tools and the tactics, which goes back to the training. We have to train them accordingly. It's not it's it's not good enough to just put numbers, you know, have uh 100% staffing. That's awesome, and we need that, but we have to give them the tools and the training to make good decisions and and uh use those things correctly. And that's where I love what you do, Mike. You know, teaching teaching leadership, um, the side of the house that you do is invaluable, and and I I uh I admire that part of it because we need good leaders, and uh they don't just magically appear.

SPEAKER_00: 51:10

They don't, and and I tell people that corrections is the breeding ground for great leaders because just like you talked about your career, who gets the opportunity to make that many tough decisions, you know, if you don't work in corrections? Sometimes daily you get to make those tough decisions that grow you as a leader, that grew you as a leader, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 51:28

And uh and I think I think part of being a leader for me is um, you know, when I was young, uh probably my ego was really big. And uh uh It's all of us. All of us, right? Especially, especially, you know, being in the law enforcement and thinking that, oh, we're untouchable. Lieutenants, especially, right? We have big egos. Um, but I was really humbled by a lot of things that happened through my career. And I think that only benefits you being a humble and being able to be trained. Um I learned I I really have the mindset of what the one of those brand new officers um that comes on on the job, I can learn something from that person because they have experiences I don't have. My military experience, I never went to war. You know, my my time that I served, those eight years that I did, I was never in an active combat zone because I was too young for Desert Storm and then I was too old for when we went back. Um, but a lot of the officers we have today have a lot of of combat experience, have a lot of different experiences that I don't have. And if and if I think because of my position, I know more than some people, then then I'm making some bad mistakes as a leader. And um I think that's important to have your ego in check, be humble and be trainable no matter what stage of your life you're at. You need to be those those things.

SPEAKER_00: 52:47

Understand that iron sharpens iron.

SPEAKER_01: 52:50

100%.

SPEAKER_00: 52:50

That's why I tell my classes, I'm here to teach you, but I hope that I leave this class myself and I can teach others. Um because that there's no way I'm smarter than a classroom of 20 people than working corrections, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 53:03

So it's uh yep, it's a hundred percent true. There was an SIS lieutenant at Raybrook, um, and I and I took a beating up there as a fairly young lieutenant when you have some really old staff that are up there, uh you probably understand what I'm talking about. They would beat you up and say, Oh, you know, what do you know? You're you're a gypsy. That's the first time I ever heard the term you're a gypsy. You know, you come in for a little bit, think you're gonna make changes, but you're gonna pack up your caravan and eventually move. I'm still gonna be here. That's where that term comes from. And I understand that. Um, and so the SIS lieutenant told me, he goes, you know, Bobby, um, and he he was a homesteader, and Mike Cross was his name. And Mike told me, he goes, the more they whittle you down, think of yourself as a pencil, the more they whittle you down, the sharper you need to get. And that's one way of that's one way of looking at it is take those lessons, learn from them, and then stay sharp and then uh teach other people. And that's truly why I want to be doing what I'm doing. I love the training, I love the technology that's out there. I I 100% need to believe in a product. I need to I need to see the proof that it does what it says it does. Sure. And that's why I I've partnered with some of the companies that I'm I'm working with, and it boils back to staff safety, it boils back to um making sure that we have the tools and the technology and the training for them.

SPEAKER_00: 54:28

I know you mentioned a couple of classes in Georgia. If people want to go see SoWright, some of these other products that you're working with, you got anything coming up?

SPEAKER_01: 54:37

Um, SOWRIT is gonna start start making their own training. And so I'm gonna help them uh establish training. Um and so that is an important aspect of it. So that will be starting. If you go to sowrite.com, you can start seeing some of their training. We the individuals they have are are wonderful. They've uh uh Charlie Noonan is gonna head up the narcotics side of the house. Charlie's a retired DEA agent, so he's very involved in the decon of the fentanyl part of it. Rob Havisize is uh heading up the canine. Um, because think about canine dogs. We have a we're we're coming out with a protocol to decontaminate canines if they come in contact with fentanyl, because they're stiff, they're putting their nose everywhere and doing those things, and and we want to keep the the dog safe. And so we have a protocol for them to keep them safe using our decon and and all those things. So Rob is is heading up that. So these training classes are gonna be coming out and we're gonna be hosting them and and uh doing those same type of things. So that is in a process right now of coming and and working on. Sure. Um, so so right's working on that. Uh the stuff in Georgia, if you go to ntoa.org, um, that stuff will eventually start coming up on on, they're gonna start promoting it as those those classes are being finalized and fine-tuned and run through the legal department and kind of make sure that we're doing doing things, you know, um the way that we should be doing things. Okay. And the PowerPoints kind of kind of comply with all that. Um, so those should be hitting up here pretty quick as well.

SPEAKER_00: 56:10

Okay. So somebody wanted to get a hold of you, where would you like them to uh reach out?

SPEAKER_01: 56:16

So they can email me at B Sornson, S-O-R-E-N-S-E-N at so right, s-o-r-i-te.com. Uh that's an email that they can use and they can email me. I am available all the time. It's it's kind of funny you say that. I've had officers on calls, actually on a SWAT call out, street cops, call me up and say, hey, Bob, um, on a call out, um, I have this munition. Is this appropriate for this situation? And I'm like, absolutely, or hey, no, don't don't throw that inside there. You're gonna start a fire, or you know, do this instead. So I'm available 24-7. If you call me and uh uh if I hear the phone, I'll answer at two in the morning. If there's an emergency and somebody needs it and needs help, um, that's what I'm all about. I'm all about saving lives and uh helping helping our fellow officers uh do the right things. If we know better, we need to do better. And uh I'm a firm believer in that, Mike.

SPEAKER_00: 57:16

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Bob. I've been meaning to get you on here for a while. It's taken a little bit, but I'm I'm glad we got to talk and uh maybe we'll get you back on here. Um I want to keep up on some of this stuff. It's pretty interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 57:30

Absolutely. It's a it's a pleasure. Um, I I our careers are intertwined, and um uh I've always admired you, and I admire what you're doing here uh with the podcast, and I admire what you're doing with Pepper Ball. Um, so thank you for um thank you for what you do and keep doing what you're doing with these podcasts. I think it's important for for our career.

SPEAKER_00: 57:51

I appreciate that also. Hope you have a great day, buddy.

SPEAKER_01: 57:54

You too. Thank you, Mike.