113: Beyond Toxicity: Building Healthier Correctional Workplaces - Interview w/Josh Ryle

Joshua Ryle brings over two decades of corrections experience to this deeply insightful conversation about the hidden psychological patterns that shape corrections culture. From his early days at the Tennessee Department of Corrections to his current role as a training sergeant, Ryle has observed firsthand how the corrections environment creates behavioral patterns that affect officers both professionally and personally.

At the heart of this episode is Ryle's new training program focused on workplace toxicity in corrections. He explains how officers spend their entire workday in a hypervigilant, fight-or-flight state that gradually transforms how they interact with everyone around them. This physiological reality leads to communication challenges, negative filtering, and self-sabotaging behaviors that follow officers home and contribute to concerning wellness statistics in the corrections profession.

What makes Ryle's approach unique is his focus on behavioral science and practical solutions. Rather than simply identifying problems, he provides clear strategies for shifting from self-criticism to self-reflection, improving communication despite technological limitations, and creating a culture where colleagues support rather than undermine each other. Ryle's program has gained such recognition that it's now being implemented nationwide through ARC Tactical.

Whether you work in corrections or are interested in workplace culture transformation, this episode provides valuable insights into how awareness and intentional behavior change can create healthier environments in even the most challenging professions. Connect with Josh at josh@arttechnet.com to learn more about bringing this training to your agency.

Josh's E-mail: josh@arctac.net

Josh's phone: 931-624-4444

ARC Tactical website: https://www.arctac.net/

PepperBall
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.

OMNI
OMNI is cutting-edge software designed to track inmates and assets within your prison or jail.

Command Presence
Bringing prisons and jails the training they deserve!

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Chapters

• 1:08 Thanking Sponsors and Introduction
• 10:25 Josh's Journey into Corrections
• 19:52 Training Evolution and Development
• 31:42 Workplace Toxicity in Corrections
• 45:43 Communication Challenges in Corrections
• 55:12 Self-Reflection vs. Self-Criticism
• 1:03:52 Creating Cultural Change
• 1:13:58 Expanding Training Nationwide

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:34

Hey guys, before I get to our first guest, I just want to take a moment today and thank Pepperball. You know they've been a sponsor of the Prison Officer Podcast for more than three years and without their sponsorship I wouldn't be able to bring this content to you. We wouldn't be able to have these great conversations with these leaders and trainers in corrections. You know I used Pepperball for more than 20 years when I was working in the institution. It was something I believed in, so it was easy for me when I got the chance to become a master instructor for Pepperball. I get to go out and train law enforcement and corrections and I get to see you guys in the field, so I really appreciate that. The great thing about Pepperball is it gives the officers the confidence to have a tool that they can use that they know is going to work. If you would reach out to Pepperball wwwpepperballcom and thank them for sponsoring the Prison Officer Podcast and, while you're there, see all the new things that are part of the Pepperball family, hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast.

Speaker 1: 1:37

My name is Mike Cantrell. Today I've got Joshua Ryle. He started off or has worked for the Tennessee Department of Corrections, the Davidson County Sheriff's Office, the Tennessee Department of Corrections, and is currently working at the Montgomery County Sheriff's Office. We met during some recent training and we had a talk and he had some pretty cool ideas on some of the stuff they were doing there and I wanted to talk to him about it. So welcome to the podcast, josh. Thanks, mike, I appreciate you having me Absolutely. This second season I've been trying to focus a little bit more on training. I think that's one thing that all of us in corrections can improve on and I think it's probably the number one most important thing that we can do for our culture and our agencies. So I'm excited to talk about that. But I always start off at the same way. I like to learn about the person I'm talking to. So if you can let us know where you grew up and you know high school and stuff like that, okay Well.

Speaker 2: 2:35

I I'm originally from Dallas, texas. I was born and raised there in the music industry, the country music industry. My father was an entertainer, or is still currently, and he got picked up by Mel Tillis in the mid 80s and that kind of just sent a roller coaster of events, of moves to Nashville, tennessee. And so I moved to Nashville as a teenager and spent all my teenage years. I went to high school at McGavock High School. I also went to high school at Nashville Academy. Right.

Speaker 2: 3:11

So, long story short, I ended up, you know, spending all my youth in Nashville, and one day he moved up to Clarksville, Tennessee, and he told me that if I ever came up here, I'd never leave it. And I'm thinking now this is a city boy that grew up in Dallas and Nashville and you're telling me to come to little Clarksville, Tennessee. Well, I moved out here and I did. I came out, I fell in love with the place and I've been here almost 20 years since. And I've been here almost 20 years since.

Speaker 2: 3:39

So but kind of what got me into this field as far as that goes, is during my high school. During my senior year I had my first child, my daughter Hope she's 27, now Nice, and I left school. I was going to, I was in a kind of a co-op program, so I was working four hours a day and then school four hours a day, getting high school credit for for work credits, and I ended up leaving that year to go to work full time. And so I did. And at the time I remember I was working for a Taco Bell and I went to my boss and I said I just left high school, I had six months to go and I'm having a little girl and I need to go to work. And so he immediately bumped me to a shift manager. And so in 1998, I was a shift manager at Taco Bell and my daughter came in to be, and what's funny is I did well in that field. I moved up, decided to change venues, so I went over to Captain D's as a senior assistant manager and then Jack in the Box comes to town and I knew everything there was to know about Jack in the Box because I'm from Dallas, texas. So I go up there interview with them and they hired me and I became part of the management team that opened six locations and during that time the vibe was on me.

Speaker 2: 5:02

You know, I remember growing up in high school and I remember hearing things like, if you don't finish school or if you don't succeed and graduate, it was never the fearful end of well, you could end up, you know, selling drugs or you could end up doing these things. It was more focused on you'll flip burgers at McDonald's, demeaning an honest living Right, and you know there was that stigma that that went with it and it kind of haunted me because I remember growing up with that. And so I had a friend of mine I was 21 and I hadn't seen him since high school and he rang my doorbell and when I opened the door his name was Ken Ford. He just recently passed away, but I owe him everything as far as this field goes, because he was standing on my doorstep in a Tennessee Department of Correction uniform and he was working for Riverbend Maximum Security Prison. Okay.

Speaker 2: 6:03

I just remember looking at him and I thought okay, wait a minute. How did you get this job, you know? And how did I get into it? Because he looked like he had purpose and that's what I feel, like I was lacking at the time, you know.

Speaker 2: 6:21

Yeah, I took on the responsibility to raise a family. But I wasn't fulfilled, and so he gave me the process and to give you an idea of how eager I was back then, you had to go down to Dedrick Avenue downtown Nashville and you had to test for the position. So I took the test and they said you did well, you passed. Now you're going to receive letters in the mail from prisons across the state and they'll schedule interviews and things of that nature. You know, I've always been one that lacked patience, and so I told him I said I don't have that kind of time.

Speaker 2: 6:55

Where's your closest prison? And they were like well, that's not usually how things are done. And I was like well, nonetheless, where's that? And so they told me about Cockrell Bend. And there were three prisons side by side MTRC, river Bend and Deberry and so I just went to the first one. So I walked into Checkpoint. There was a Checkpoint officer. I asked to speak to anyone in their HR. I remember an older gentleman, retired military retired His name was Jim Omnivet Lieutenant, and he came around and I introduced myself and I told him you know what I was trying to do, and I think that he might have kind of been taken back by my directed. You know how direct I was being Boldness.

Speaker 2: 7:39

Yeah, I mean I was pretty bold to walk into a prison saying I need a job. Sure, you know government jobs don't usually go down that way. But it was funny. He interviewed me and you know you got to do the background check and everything before you take the test back then and so.

Speaker 2: 7:53

I was literally on a bus to Tullahoma the very next week where I went to the academy. On a bus to Tullahoma the very next week where I went to the academy, they hired me and I remember experiencing the structure of that and you know, when you grow up in the music world and your father's an entertainer, structure is something that I was lacking. I could see that. So I went in, I graduated their academy and I remember walking into the facility and this was at Middle Tennessee Correctional Complex. It was a reception center, so this is the first place people go. When they come from the county jails, we classify them and then you know, within the next 90 days we'll ship them off to time building facilities. And I remember walking in there and I was just all about it.

Speaker 2: 8:39

I wanted to learn any and everything I could and I was very fortunate that they threw every ounce of training. I mean, if I requested it, I mean they just gave it Back then. People who hired on. This is 2001 now, so we're talking almost 25 years ago. Yeah, who hired on this?

Speaker 2: 9:00

is 2001 now, so we're talking almost 25 years ago. We had a lot of retired military, a lot of older generation that were filling those spots and so to get some, you know, young kids our age coming in there and just eager to show up and just want to be a part of something they were very receiving of that and they just, I mean, they really took care of me and I was so taken back by them.

Speaker 2: 9:20

I worked there for almost four years and then, um, I I decided to head County and, you know, tried detention. And so that's how I ended up going to Davidson County Sheriff's office and I was with them for about three and a half years. And.

Speaker 2: 9:37

I wasn't very career minded, I was money minded, so I was chasing who paid better, you know in my early twenties. And then I heard about the unlimited overtime opportunity at Deberry special needs mental health facility. And so when you come to them with seven years experience. Your post is the mental health unit and so I was a set relief post within that mental health unit. Within Seven Charlie Bravo and Foxtrot, and I gave them about two years. About two years of the mental health at that level was about all I could muster up. And so yeah it really was.

Speaker 2: 10:23

That was of any chapter of my life, that was probably the most beneficial two years of my future going forward and dealing with mental health inmates and you know, kind of being able to decipher the difference between disciplinary and mental health crisis. Right.

Speaker 2: 10:44

And so in 2010, I put in to apply at Montgomery County and they picked me up. I remember speaking to the individual that interviewed me and you know he mentioned that they were on the same retirement as Nashville at TDOC and I said if you give me an opportunity, I'll never leave. And here we are all these years later, may of next year, I'll have been in corrections for 25 years, nice. And so so, yeah, I've been with Montgomery County now 16 years, yeah, so did you start with Montgomery County as an officer?

Speaker 1: 11:19

I?

Speaker 2: 11:20

did? I started out as a deputy. I was promoted to FTO within the first two years, back when it was a separate it was initially a separate rank. Then I promoted up to corporal a year after that. I was corporal for multiple years before I ended up taking a transfer. My kids were getting older and I wanted to kind of be on some normal hours. I've been working nights and swing shift, you know, since 2001. So I decided to give the courts a try and I went and worked courts for almost two years and during all that time I've been adjunct training, so as an extra to fill in, and I've done that since about 2000. And an opportunity came to promote up into full-time and that's what led us to where we're at today, and that's been almost four years.

Speaker 1: 12:14

Cool, cool. I want to back up just a little bit, and this is from my own personal knowledge. Cool, I want to back up just a little bit, and this is from my own personal knowledge. I work with Command Presence and we've recently started up the Correctional Training Officer Program. So tell me about your FTO program. What did that consist of? What were the timelines?

Speaker 1: 12:30

Because you know, as I went to study and started to build this program for Command Presence, I did some study across the United States. There is nothing written in stone anywhere, it is all over the place. Some of them, you know, some of them we're talking, less than a week We've got probably at the most I saw was four weeks, which is crazy when you think about the fact that to become a wildlife officer in Texas, you know you're going to go through a 15 week Academy, you're going to go through an FTO program for six months and you're going to take almost a full year of training to become a wildlife officer, but yet we're going to throw people in corrections, just bam, bam, bam. So I'm interested and this is on a personal note, but I'm interested on the timeline of the FTO program that you worked in. How did that work. Can you talk to me about that?

Speaker 2: 13:19

Well, it grew substantially over the years. We've been very fortunate. The initial start is four weeks of initial training with me and my partner in training. I call her Action.

Speaker 1: 13:28

Jackson. Now is this after the academy.

Speaker 2: 13:31

No, this is initial. So for corrections.

Speaker 1: 13:35

Institutional.

Speaker 2: 13:36

Yeah, and so they'll spend four weeks with us and then they go into an FTO process of seven weeks where, of course, they're graded on a daily basis, observed, you know. You know polish up where we need to polish up. You know recognize the things that are going well until they have a formal graduation at the completion are they staying with a FTO or a CTO that entire time?

Speaker 1: 14:01

Yes, wow, yes. Seven weeks with an FTO, that that's not. Uh, you don't find that everywhere. That's a pretty good program, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:10

We, we've been very fortunate.

Speaker 1: 14:11

Yeah, yeah, wow, really yeah. So, um, you get in there, and now you're, and now you are the professional.

Speaker 2: 14:21

What's the role I forgot I'm a training sergeant. So a sergeant in the training division for the corrections side under TCI Tennessee Corrections Institute.

Speaker 1: 14:31

And there's two of you working there at Montgomery County in that position, mm-hmm, okay. How many officers?

Speaker 2: 14:37

Or how many deputies you would ask me that Just generally, I want to say just shy of 200. Okay. And that's figurative. That's more of a guess because I have not looked at the count yet or lately, but that's about average.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Right, so yeah, so tell me about the training program. What all do you guys do for Montgomery County?

Speaker 2: 15:07

Well, we do everything from firearms to defensive tactics to emergency response law, of course, the ins and outs of our policy and procedure and things of that nature, deescalation, just all the big topics that we do. And then when I came into the position, that's kind of led us to where we're at. I remember I got promoted on a Friday and my partner came up and showed me my work area and I thought, man, what a nice work area and it was all so neat and presentable. And then I went over and looked at her work area and I said what's all that? She said that's your workload and I was like okay, what have I done? Welcome to the world of training.

Speaker 2: 15:56

But she had mentioned, she said that she had been carrying the load of two of us waiting for the process you know the selection process for someone to come in and give her a hand. And she said I am under a deadline and I need a class for in-service. And I said okay, and she said I need it by Monday. I need it by Monday. And I said, jack, it's Friday. She's like yeah, I'm going to give you a laptop. And I said okay, how long do we need? And she said two, three hours and I said wait a minute.

Speaker 2: 16:39

You want me to come up with a training worth its salt that are going to keep people focused and interactive in two days, but three hours of material. And she's like yeah, I was like okay. And she goes the good news is subject matter of your choosing. And then I thought, okay, your choosing Right. And then I thought okay. So I have always been someone that what really? I don't know that you. You have some people that are defensive tactics nerds. You have people that are book nerds. You know I am a human behavior nerd. What just blows my mind? I love to study why we behave the way we do, specifically in our field, because there are reasons why.

Speaker 2: 17:27

And a lot of times we don't want to vote, we don't look at the reasons why, and so I decided to start digging, and so I did, went home, I worked on my own time at my house and I mean it was hours and hours just to get enough to get through Monday, because I knew it was going to grow bigger and bigger. In general, not agency specific, because no matter what agency I've ever worked for, we have some very commonalities in corrections culture across the board. It didn't matter whether I was working at the state prison or for any county facility. There were behaviors amongst us, as far as ourselves, that we start to develop over time, that kind of feed, this end-time statistic of officer wellness and things of that nature.

Speaker 1: 18:23

So give me specific examples.

Speaker 2: 18:25

Okay. So I remember multiple times I've been to several wellness trainings over the years and the statistics that that plague the, the corrections field divorce, suicide, alcoholism, drug addiction. You know we die early when we retire. I think the last statistic I read was less than five years after retirement. These are things that I've always wondered. Why, what feeds that? And, of course, over time, you know, as I've worked in the field, I know that the stress, the high stress, high speed, low drag. You know constant moving, constant interaction with the inmate population and not to mention fellow staff members too. There are things that we pick up along the way that we don't even know is happening, pick up along the way that we don't even know is happening. And my whole approach to that was well, what if we could take a proactive approach? Why not? Corrections historically has been a very reactive field when things happen we react, we change policies.

Speaker 2: 19:35

We change training Absolutely, but there's also some areas that we could be more proactive, and so I wanted to focus on the first part of the training. It was the initial. This was all it was ever going to be was I wanted to focus on workplace toxicity. Okay. And what were some of the things?

Speaker 1: 19:56

that. Tell me what that means, Tell what we're talking about here.

Speaker 2: 20:01

So, for example, when you, when you look at the statistics of officer wellness and you see all of those topics that I just threw out during early training this, these were kind of synonymous with people who had spent a lifetime in corrections and this was our end result things to be aware of, things to watch out for, okay, but whenever you start to ask the questions of, well, what feeds that? You start talking about the high stress or maybe some of the trauma that we've interacted in along the way. Well, what does that say for the one to five-year employee we're seeing these statistics on and they're not at the end of their career. Five years ago, they come into our line of work and they can't wait to put your uniform on. They're so excited.

Speaker 2: 20:49

And now, all of a sudden, we're seeing wellness issues, we're seeing divorce, we're seeing alcoholism, we're seeing these things happen at a much faster rate and that was kind of what fed the prequel to the training. So, but those same things that feed that were the same things that start to change how we interact with each other that I went into were. You know, from the moment that we come into this field, things start happening, things start changing and in the beginning. You look at it and it's the things that are changing in us that make us really good in our field. You know we start to develop things like an investigative mindset, what it means to be security-minded, to be aware of your surroundings, having that situational awareness these are all great things that make you really good.

Speaker 1: 21:46

It becomes hypervigilance.

Speaker 2: 21:48

Absolutely, yeah, okay. So when you look at that and you think of these things that make, when you're constantly dealing with your inmate population and you're constantly trying to get to the bottom of whatever it is you're dealing with that day, whether it be you know fights, you know floods, you know or just daily manipulation you know when you leave the world that you've lived in your entire life, for the most part it's trustworthy until given a reason not to. But then you enter a world that's 100% manipulation and you start to pick up some different characteristics and what I've noticed is those things that make us really great at that. They start to become part of our DNA as we continue on in our career and then we start using those same concepts to deal with each other Right Now. That can be a problem, okay, especially then, because if this is the same process that you're interacting with colleagues, now your inmate population, your colleagues who you are spending more time with than your family, do you not think that these same things are going to go home and now you're going to interact with family, the same way, right? So, for example, some of the things, just the common things, that we kind of laugh about as far as behaviors go and corrections.

Speaker 2: 23:10

When you have to deal and live in that investigative mindset a hundred percent of your of your workday, you immediately what it does is it starts to train you to assume the worst in the person that you're dealing with. Whether it be staff, inmate, family doesn't matter, and it's a habit that's hard to break because you don't even know what's happening. And so, for example, you know when somebody calls out sick on you as a supervisor, the first thing out of most people's minds that have spent a lifetime in this career isn't well. I hope they feel better. It's, they just didn't want to come to work assuming the worst, for example, it kind of strays our priorities.

Speaker 2: 23:52

I used to ask this question to people, as I've taught this class across other counties and other places, as I've taught this class across other counties and other places, and I always ask the question when it comes to priority, just to kind of show how that assumption changes for the worst. I said if I'm your colleague and something is happening that is life-threatening and you have to get to me to save my life, how many of you are going to do it? And, mike, I'll get 100% hands in the air. Yeah, we got you, brother, and you know why? Because that's what we do. That's when we perform at our best. Okay.

Speaker 2: 24:28

Well, then I say, okay, so now let's flip the script just a little bit. Now you're my relieving shift and I didn't get all my showers and my wrecked bed. And now you got to pick up my slack. God help me, because it couldn't be because I got busy, it's because I had to be sitting around doing nothing, because we're assuming that that's a performance issue and there's always been very little forgiveness and performance issues and corrections because we don't have a lot of room for error.

Speaker 2: 24:58

And so essentially, we're saying, yes, we'll save your life, but we won't help carry the load. And it's funny to see that light bulb go off on people and they go oh my gosh, I've done that. And what's funny is is the whole time that we were putting this together, as I was sitting there putting in these details and looking these things up, I realized here I thought I was on a soapbox. I was guilty of every single one of them, and then it just intrigued me even more. I wanted to know well, where does that come from? How does that start? So it was funny. The first time I taught it. I remember you know it's hard. You know you can go teach in another area and the interaction is very different than when you teach at home, because your colleagues have seen you at your worst, they've seen you have those bad days. And now here we are talking about how to address, you know, a workplace toxicity and how to not let it overcome all facets of your life. And I remember I got up there in front of these folks and I was looking around the room and I

Speaker 2: 26:05

thought this was going to be a tough one, you know, because there's a lot of positivity in it. But instead of tackling individuals, it was more of just tackling the behaviors and showing where they come from and how to change them, how to pivot and move into something a little more healthy. And I got done with that class. We taught for almost three hours and I remember having colleagues that have been in double digits come up to me and they said why have I been in this line of work this long? And that's the first time I've ever heard that discussed. And the response was I needed to hear that because I didn't realize those behaviors that I was picking up and talking about the topics of it, like negative filtering, self-sabotaging behavior.

Speaker 2: 26:58

Talking about the topics of it like negative filtering, self-sabotaging behavior, you know where, over time, we learned to self-criticize instead of self-reflect. And you know, in dealing with the two, one doesn't allow growth and one does. You know, and historically we dwell in our mistakes and we that's what we do we self-criticize, which is why that cycle just kind of keeps repeating itself. And so, after getting that initial response, I knew especially from some of the individuals that I got it from I knew I was on to something that was for the good of our culture and that was the goal was to just show a different perspective on corrections culture and show people that our culture is controlled by ourselves.

Speaker 2: 27:47

Now, I may not be able to change you as an individual, but I know somebody inspired me to make change in myself and, if I can do the same and inspire that, that want that need to make a change, to bring a little more positivity to what you do for a living, because I think that one of the most important things to teach people in this field if you want to teach people to take pride in the purpose that they serve, they got to know why they matter in the first place. You know, and I can't tell you how many times when I started early in my career, mike, I used to hear people tell me all the time well, you know, you're not the real police, right? Well, telling me that doesn't help me grow better in my field.

Speaker 1: 28:31

So where is that coming from? Is that a lack of training? Is it a lack of leadership? Is it a lack of you know where? Where is that feeling coming from that you know that you're not worth whatever, that you're not as?

Speaker 2: 28:45

I don't know if I would call that a lack of anything. I think it was just historical corrections. I used to. I remember being 21 years old and having colleagues just say you know, all we are are glorified babysitters. I used to hear them demean that that's culture. Yeah, well, exactly. And so I wouldn't say it was like a lack of leadership or training, I think it was just common culture. And I've heard those things at every area of my career. And you know what's funny is my response anytime I ever heard that, you know, I said, regardless of your faith, you know, we can agree that that we get a good go around at this. This is the road that we chose, this is what we chose to do with it, and I just can't fathom that doing something at a mediocre level without all my passion and all my drive, it's my one go around, I know. I have to believe that every one of us have some purpose, more than just thinking that you just go to work every day and punch a clock.

Speaker 1: 29:50

Yeah, but I'm going to have to. I guess I might have to push back a little bit on this, because I absolutely think it's leadership If your employees.

Speaker 1: 30:02

Your employees won't have that if they feel valued Now, whether that's supervisory or whether that's administration, but you know being a servant leader, letting people know that you care, letting people know that they're worth, something that comes from the top down. And the opposite also comes from the top down. I worked for a warden very early on at Springfield Missouri and I have never met anybody that hated line staff as bad as he did, as he did, and his leadership oozed into that institution, to the point that the only thing that the inmates and officers had in common was that they hated that man.

Speaker 2: 30:43

Yeah, I think I'll add to that too, though If that's the culture that he came up in, that field in, he wouldn't know any different either. You know what I mean? I mean, I guess, well, if you stop and look at it, I mean if the culture never changes and like I said from 01 throughout my entire career, it's improved but you still have those pockets of just folks that you know and you're going to have them everywhere in every walk of life. But it seems like in corrections it seems to be a little bit amplified as far as just the amount that you deal with on a regular basis.

Speaker 2: 31:19

And now what's funny is is when you see these folks come in they didn't come in with that attitude, you know. They came in ready and eager to take on the world. And after about six months to a year, we start to see these changes and it's like wait a minute, what's happening? There's something about culture that's affecting this, because they didn't come to us this way. But what it does mean is is that they learned it. They can unlearn it. If you can learn that behavior, you can learn a better behavior.

Speaker 1: 31:49

I ticked off a guy in a training about a month ago because here's what I told him about culture because he was sitting in the back with his arms crossed while I'm teaching, you know, and every and we were talking about a use of force and and in this situation, the sergeant had taken the time to pull everybody back out we'll get our, you know, we'll get our stuff in order, and now we'll go back in. I said that's the safest way to do that, you know. And he pops off. Well, we, they should have just went in there and stomped him. They should just so whoa. I said that's the safest way to do that, you know. And he pops off. Well, we, they should have just went in there and stomped him. They should just say Whoa.

Speaker 1: 32:23

I said you know safety and liability, you know, that's, that's what we've got to take a look at. And he just kept going and he started talking about culture. And here's what I told him. I said if you don't like the culture and I'll tell this, go look in the mirror. You're the culture. Every day, you set an example. Whether you set a bad example or a good example is up to you, and that's for the staff. You're setting an example that's for the inmates. You're setting an example, so I I'm so glad you said that.

Speaker 2: 32:52

Well, I say that, mike, because that's the response I give as a matter of fact, even when I was at that last training with you in Nashville. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:01

And you know when I'm, when I'm talking to people that that you know, say you know they want a better quality officer or better quality deputy. You know, as far as the younger generation and I don't know if you remember what I said at that event, but my response was what behaviors are you giving them to emulate? If you want better, then you got to make sure that you're giving them something to be. You are the one that they mold themselves after, because you are the one they report to, and so if you're putting that out, you'll get a better quality. You know people are worth the investment, mentally and physically. It's not just enough to train the mission, the life lessons that we've learned over the years, that maybe have been lost in technology times. Well then, the oomph falls on us that we have to be the ones to go ahead and give them those lessons, to make them more effective at what they do and to help the mission.

Speaker 1: 33:55

Right. And so I think the other thing that we need to take a look at when we talk about these cultures, when we talk about the grumpy bastard back in the corner you know that just is mad. Every day, and I've worked with them too it's like anything else in life. It's about whether you're a low level leader as a supervisor, or whether you're an administrator. It's all about expectations, right. It's about the expectations you set. If you walk into a housing unit and you got an officer working in there and those inmates are doing what they want laundry's hanging off the wall, they've got their chairs pulled out, leaned back watching the TV that's the expectation that that officer has for those inmates and you walk in the next housing unit and it doesn't look like that, and that's because of the expectations we have to including those old grumpy people. We grab them by the collar, we pull them out of their comfortable, grumpy place and we set expectations for them, because they are a cancer yeah, they are a cancer in your agency.

Speaker 2: 34:54

Well, and the thing is, is they're not just a cancer in your agency? Well, and the thing is, is not they're not just the cancer in the in the agency? I mean, yes, they will feed all of your problems, whether it becomes to, you know keep, you know maintaining your a low level of retention or, you know, trying to increase morale. I mean, yes, you will have those that bring it down. But what people don't realize is is the amount of power these individuals have, because, as they start to infect your staff, your staff are now carrying all of that home, their families.

Speaker 2: 35:33

You said that stress, that constant workplace stress, and you know some of the ways that I tackled. That was one individual behavior. The first one that I spoke about in the training was negative filtering, and you know, of course, you know there's a lot of ways you can go with negative filtering, and so I gave an example. I said how many of you have ever been to a meeting where some change or some new laws have changed, or whether we got to pivot, change our policy, whatever we got?

Speaker 2: 36:02

to do, sure, and that meeting was the most professional meeting I ever sat through. I mean, it was just put out. This is what we got to do, this is how we're going to do it. I'm dependent on you to make this happen and to present this to the next level down. And I remember going to briefings and this is for over the years, and I would have that delivery completely change from what it was, because it was stained with opinion, because they didn't want to change, and so then they just spewed it to the staff and it contaminated all of them, and then they were curious as to why it wasn't received well, You're talking about the person who comes up and we've got to implement change and they say I don't want this either, but this is what central office or this is what whoever has said we have to do.

Speaker 2: 36:57

Right, and so, by doing that, what you've done is is you've established a line between your staff and your admin and that's not okay, that's not how it was presented to you, but because you've put the opinion on it and now your people, who are a product of you, see that it's not well received by you, see that it's not well received by you. So therefore, it's not well received by them.

Speaker 2: 37:19

Now that behavior is going to process into the next one, which is self-sabotaging behavior. And so when you look at the word sabotage versus self-sabotage, there is one big word that is not in self-sabotage, and that is my intent. See if I set out to sabotage you, Mike. I'm setting out to make you look bad, probably essentially to make me look good. Ok, right, Self-sabotage, which is common terms in the world of addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction, whatever your addiction.

Speaker 2: 37:54

Well this can also plug you in the workplace. So, for example, you take in that negative opinion and that message that was given to you to be passed to the line staff in the same manner and same intent that it was intended. You've now stained that. And so, now that it's not well received, they're purposely going against the grain, they're purposely dragging their feet, they're purposely trying to make it fail. And then that's a reflection of who? The guy who had the negative filter, who did I sabotage Myself? But I don't realize. I'm doing it because I think that I'm just making my point or I'm, or I'm. So many times I hear in my people. Well, backing your people with negativity isn't really backing them.

Speaker 2: 38:40

Right, right, you're not giving them an example to follow through on or leaning into them.

Speaker 1: 38:46

I mean, if you've got to bring bad news, if you've got to bring change, if you've got to do that kind of stuff, you don't do it from this top down with a hammer. You go in there and you sit down with the people that you trust, the people that have influence inside your, your agency, your shift, whatever, and you talk to them about it. Well, how would you implement this? What does this look like to you? How can we make this work for everybody? And then you let that flow back up. If you walk in, if you walk into meetings and and that's the way you run stuff, which I've worked for him too and we're going to do this and no more talking about it. I want to see this by next Thursday. You're not getting any buy-in, you have no influence and it's going to fail.

Speaker 2: 39:28

Yeah, Well, and, and you know, when we were going through those things, it was just funny to see the light bulbs go off. And I think that part of what made it well received was the fact that you know I went into detail of how I was totally guilty of those things, how I this was not a matter of me just saying where everybody else is making these mistakes.

Speaker 2: 39:53

I made these mistakes and I was able to self-reflect and kind of change my thinking process and not assume the worst in others. Because that's the other thing where the sabotage comes in is you're feeding that behavior of the assumption of the worst in people, the assumption of the worst in people. So, for example, by saying, well, it's because these folks said so, not given the real, it could be the TCA changed, it could be that you know the law says we can't do this anymore.

Speaker 2: 40:26

We didn't want to say that we want to put it off on an individual. Well now, all I'm doing is feeding that culture up.

Speaker 2: 40:35

Now they are assuming that this change is happening and it's personal, not professional, and that's where that negative filtering. That's the form of cancer that toxic people spread constantly, and misery tends to love company, so that's why it grows at such a rapid rate. Looking at the science behind it, it doesn't help that we are already predispositioned to lean towards the negative anyway and some of our other trainings. When we start talking about we do a de-escalation course that we adopted. And when you start talking about gaining and draining feelings, things that build you up and things that bring you at your lowest, it's amazing to see when people write out a whole list of those, about 98% of the time when you ask them how many of you have more draining than gaining, and they're all raising their hand.

Speaker 2: 41:25

Well then, you know, of course we have some videos from some doctors that we play, and it talks about how we are already wired to lean towards the negative. Well, we are already wired to lean towards the negative. We actually have more negative responders in the brain than we do for the positive, which feeds all kinds of behavioral biases, like the negativity bias, the pessimistic, the hostile attribution, these things that commonly plague us in our field, because we start spiraling down those behaviors before we end up either at the termination or the resignation Right, and which is kind of what led into the beginning of that course. Remember, I told you we started with the one that addressed toxicity. I did a sequel to it that was for leadership and corrections, and then I did a prequel because I got a phone call.

Speaker 2: 42:19

I'm getting a little ahead of myself. The creating change class got such a response that I'm going to back up here just a sec. I went to an instructor development and while I was there I was able to just speak on about five minutes of any topic I wanted, and so I spoke for five minutes on that class and I had multiple counties out of that class request the training, and so I'll tell you a real treat that I got out of that I got a. I was there with a gentleman named Solomon Holly great guy out of Davidson.

Speaker 2: 42:52

County and he called me out of nowhere and he said Josh. He said I've been talking with Heath Kane and Heath Kane was one of my mentors, mike, when I was 24. He was my training instructor at 24 and he is still at it and doing great at it. Well, they asked me if I would come back to Davidson County and teach that class, and so me and my partner we loaded up, we decided we were going to go present it as a team and we did. And I remember walking in that room and I looked out at Heath and his fellow staff and I remember opening up I think it was probably the most meaningful opening that I could give for that specific crew and I looked at Heath and I said you know, 22 years ago I gave you a real raw return on your investment in me, because when I left, I was the epitome of everything we're going to talk about in this training. I said but I want to let you know that your investment wasn't lost. I just had to grow up a little bit to know what to do with it. And so I said I hope this makes up for it, you know. And so I said I hope this makes up for it, you know, and so we went into it. The response that we got was phenomenal.

Speaker 2: 44:01

At that point we started gifting it to other counties. Counties would send their FTOs to shadow us and then I would send the material home with them. That's how I'm going to take it. You know, let's kind of change this culture together. If we show people better ways to go about their daily and what their purpose is, then they should be able to walk out of here feeling a whole new level of fulfillment, because we're not focusing on all those things that that feed the end demise. You know the, the statistics of wellness, you know. And so when that started happening, I got a call from David Ilowa from Tennessee Corrections Institute and he came out and shadowed the class in Montgomery County and he presented it at the conference in Gatlinburg and it did really well.

Speaker 2: 44:52

And I remember the next year after that conference he called me out of nowhere and by now I've already done the leadership portion and we've started running that for in services and we're getting really good response from that. He says what are you working on right now? And I said I'm working on a prequel to all of this. Okay, and he said I'm working on a prequel to all of this. Are you like done with it or like kind of give me an idea of what it's on? And so I told him I said well, I want to start from the beginning, from the very beginning.

Speaker 2: 45:26

So from the day that someone hires in, the course is called my First Day, and that's the first section of this training going forward.

Speaker 2: 45:34

And it focuses on the science as far as the breakdown of the brain, how you know, for example, the neocortex, the frontal lobe of the brain, which is what's in control of all your level of understanding and rationale and able to really interpret what's going on. You've got that section. Then you've got your next section down, which is in charge of your emotions, your limbic system, where you know they say you know once you take a drink of alcohol, you can no longer think with that understanding portion of your brain. You're immediately in that emotional state. And then, of course, the smallest portion of your brain, which is the amygdala, where you are geared. This is the response for fight or flight. Okay, now, what people don't realize is is from the moment that you step into those walls or the step into any facility or whatever, that's where we spend a hundred percent of our day in that smallest portion. We are always ready for things to pop off at any moment, anytime, any place, anywhere.

Speaker 2: 46:38

Always ready for things to pop off at any moment, any time any place anywhere, which is why, when the things are hitting the fan man, that's where we rock, that's where we perform our best, because that's what we know exactly how to handle that the problem with that comes. There's a whole lot of daily interaction and communication that has to take place with each other and we're all in that mindset, and so our normal interaction can tend to come off very offensive and very transactional, because you are in that state of mind where it's all business and we don't have time to focus in on the intent behind a colleague's actions or whatever. We just assume it's the worst. For example and I always use this as a joke for any of us who've ever worked any kind of control room, they're all the same, they're busy, especially at shift change. Let that phone ring during shift change. You'll hear them answer. It's like what do you want? You know just that immediate off interaction that they would have never responded that way any other time and I'll use that one just as a as an example. But knowing that.

Speaker 2: 47:49

So now let's, let's add a little portion to that. If we know that this is where we're thinking 100 of the time, let's start looking at the breakdown of communication. So when you look down at the breakdown model of communication, about 58% of our communication is received successfully through body language okay, and interaction, all right. Then 37% is your voice and your tone, because you can tell my intent behind what I'm saying. But 7% 7% is the words that face value. So now you look at the times as they've changed. How do we communicate across society? Email, text, instagram, social media. This is how we interact. So the problem with that is is that 7% success rate is now based on the mood of the reader.

Speaker 2: 48:53

So now think, essentially, if you send out an email to and I'll just say 50 people, you got 50 staff members out an email to, and I'll just say 50 people, you got 50 staff members and they're all in that facility and they're rocking and rolling, doing their normal daily routine, and they're constantly in that state of fight or flight. Is it not understandable to see how they would misinterpret the intent behind an email when they're all reading it? From that state of mind, no wonder we're getting all these different interpretations of it. And then you have arguments. Now don't get me wrong, we're not going to be able to get rid of email and all these things that make communication easier or at least more efficient in the level of how many people you can cover at one time.

Speaker 2: 49:36

But it does mean that we have to make sure that the people that we task to translate that into the intended message that it is are doing it without that negative filter, because when you know you're sending that in, we want to make sure that it's interpreted in the way it's intended. And so it's funny because, you know, emojis have ruined us. I mean, I remember a time where I sent out an email and I was like, hey, I'm coming to pick this up on this day at this time. Please have everything buttoned up ready to go. And I mean I was getting phone calls going. Man, why are you yelling at me over this thing?

Speaker 2: 50:11

And I wasn't even typing in all caps, right. So now I have to have fun with it. It's like, hey, this is not a nasty gram, yeah, lol. Hope you're having a great day. Hey, just to let you know, while I'm making my rounds through, I'm going to come by. I need to pick these up. I got a deadline I got to meet, whatever you know. I hope you have a great rest of your day. Y'all are doing great. You have to add that additional in to mentally disarm the reader, because they are in that mode of business, and it's not that they assume that what you're saying is bad. It's that they don't really have a choice in the matter. They're focused on the mission and this is something that's taken their mind off of that. And so we immediately beeline to deal with that as short, sweet as possible that we can. And then back to the mission.

Speaker 2: 50:58

You know, that can be a problem in your daily interaction with folks. And so while I was talking to him about that, he said would you be willing to teach at a conference? And so Jackson and I we collabed on this one, we sat down and we put in the work and we started talking about those behavioral biases that people pick up and the reason we went through that, focusing more on the behavioral, not so much the physical. A lot of times, whenever you ask the question in a classroom about biases, and you ask a lot of times the class will lean on the physical. They'll talk about age, race, sex, all of those topics that are biases that people have.

Speaker 2: 51:40

Where I'm focusing more on behavioral. So when you ask that, initially they're kind of like, you know, you kind of get crickets. And so then you start talking about like the negativity bias, as I mentioned earlier. Easy to fall into that, especially at the age that you are able to hire in at corrections. So, for example, most corrections facilities that I've seen that don't carry a commission status hire in at 18. For those that do carry commission status, it's 21. Well, when you start asking people when they think that they develop their biases, a lot of the feedback I've gotten over the years is well. During our childhood, and they're not wrong you do.

Speaker 2: 52:30

You develop a lot of your biases based on how you were raised, who you were raised, by all these things. But when it comes to the behavioral side it's a little bit different. So, for example, on the behavioral side it's a little bit different. So, for example, on the behavioral end, the average adult and I say that adult doesn't stop or is not fully developed in that frontal lobe, that neocortex, so I'm at the age of 29. Well, that's where a lot of those behavioral, those behaviors are picked up. So we've all heard the saying, you know, I remember hearing it growing up when I was a kid if you hang out with a rough crowd, you become the rough crowd, right? Right.

Speaker 2: 53:09

Well, so can you imagine coming in at 18, 21 years old and you enter a toxic culture and this, and then your daily interaction with inmate population, is what's shaping your ability to reason and understand? And so essentially, the negativity bias trains the mind, basically the feeling of loss. You feel that at so much higher a level than you do of all that you've gained. So essentially, like I give a visual, it's like it's got this guy with this wheelbarrow and he's just it's full to the rim of all these things that he has in this wheelbarrow and then he looks over and he sees the one thing on the other side that he doesn't have and it makes him mad. You know, and we joke on the gun range because I tell all my officers I'm like I see it every time you get out there You'll have a grouping this big and one round will be down here and, man, they're so frustrated with that one round because they didn't pull that one into the rest.

Speaker 1: 54:09

And so if you're a new officer and you feel like you're in this toxic culture, what's some of the stuff you can do?

Speaker 2: 54:18

I mean how do they avoid this? So one the training initially is that of what it is. It is a red flag training. These are behaviors now that we've talked about, we've discussed. So one is now you know how to recognize it. The whole point of that was, I remember years ago and I asked this even at a facility I worked at before I used to ask them when you hire people in, what are you telling them? They're like well, we tell them all the things that they can accomplish with hard work and make sure they show up on time, be ready to just take on anything, be a solution to your supervisor's problems.

Speaker 2: 54:52

I'm like that's awesome, but what are you telling them about the daily interaction? And it's well, we didn't want to run them off. And what are you telling them about the daily interaction? And it's well, we didn't want to run them off, and I'm like so they feel like they're lied to. So let's, let's, let's be transparent about it. Hey, this is what you're signing on for, and these are the behaviors that can either make or break you. Let's talk about the ones that break and then, if you start to find yourself spiraling, here's some ways that you can actually get yourself on the right track.

Speaker 1: 55:21

What are some of those ways?

Speaker 2: 55:23

Well, one initially is to first let them know. Surround yourself with people that are for you. Sure. Okay, people who feed advice with things that end success are not people who are for you.

Speaker 2: 55:38

Right success are not people who are for you, people who remind you of why you matter and what the end result of your goal is and how you'll never meet it, because nobody ever won anything throwing in the towel. That's step one. Step two if you start falling into this and it usually starts to happen when we start to make mistakes, or maybe we get ourselves in a little bit of trouble Maybe we did something, maybe we cut some corners somewhere we shouldn't have, and now they're having to, you know, reprimand me or? Or verbal counsel, you know all of those things that kind of come with this. Okay, instead of sitting there and self-criticizing if we go over in depth of self-criticism and why that is the common mindset of corrections we then show them a path of how to self-reflect, of how to actually look at what your part of this issue was, and instead of just making this because I never think that disciplinary action should be a point of discipline I think it should be a point of education. You know, yes, we have to do this to acknowledge the mistake made, but we're going to end this on the path to get you right.

Speaker 2: 56:55

You know exactly, and if you pave that path one, you eliminate the possibility of them thinking it was personal, because now you're there for their benefit. You still address the problem, you still did it with the way that you had to do it. But then you have to give them a path to self-reflect. A lot of people don't know how to self-reflect and there's so many steps in that. You know some of them are, you know, to one. Take a break from the circumstances, because when you initially get primed or when you feel threatened, you're already in that state of fight or flight. So at that point you start to go into an overload.

Speaker 2: 57:32

And so that's where we've seen people get so mad or frustrated they just can't even function. You know you're having to like walk them outside, let them get a cigarette or whatever their Coke or whatever it is that their advice is to kind of wind down. If you know that this is how people are going to respond, we have to teach them how to not focus on exaggerated thoughts. I give a prime example I had a deputy call me one day and they said I need to speak to a lieutenant right now, right, this very second, and I said okay, well, hold on now. I said have you had a chance to talk to your shift commander? No, I said okay, are you going to Do they get a chance? I mean, you know I'm not your shift commander, but you can find in me, and so I want to make sure I'll steer you the right way.

Speaker 2: 58:25

So they're not even going to get a shot at this. I said what does this have to do with? Is this with you, know, with the shift commander? No, well, the corporal. I said okay, now we're getting somewhere. Have you had a conversation with the corporal? No, because whenever I did, he had that look on his face like just get the heck out of my face, new guy.

Speaker 1: 58:43

And I said well, wait a minute.

Speaker 2: 58:44

Did he say that to you? Well, no, but that's what his face said. I said wait a minute. Did you just give this person a my face status? Like, are you kidding me? Like you just look at the mood and we just go ahead like it's Facebook and put an emoji there and they're angsty today. Right.

Speaker 2: 59:02

So I said look, here's what you need to do. One go home. You know, whenever you get home, like at the end of your shift, take a night to process this. The next day, I want you to go to that leader and I want you to have a conversation and I want you to tell them what you feel their delivery of whatever information was that got you to this point, how that impacted you, and I think you'll be surprised at their response. And so they did. They go and talk to them and they came back to me and they said that was the best advice ever.

Speaker 2: 59:42

Everything that I thought was the intent behind the message had nothing to do with everything that I added to it and it was a means of encouraging that professional conflict where there's nothing personal. You know, a lot of people think that that conflict is not a good thing. Professional conflict is a good thing. It's how we solve problems. Absolutely Sure it is. And so teaching these folks how to have that, because communication across society doesn't encourage it. We communicate via thread or whatever posting I'm putting, and there's not really a whole lot of accountability, whatever posting I'm putting, and there's not really a whole lot of accountability. So when you start putting people in an area that they have to interact with each other a lot of times with our younger deputies they'll just, they'll just recede back, they won't even interact and some of them would rather quit because that's not being taught.

Speaker 2: 1:00:34

It's like well, wait a minute, let's encourage it. That's how you're going to get to the bottom of this, and then we can put it behind us and move on to the next one.

Speaker 2: 1:00:42

And so there's a there's a whole seven step process in transitioning from self-criticism to self-reflection and then starting to focus on the things now and behaviors that build each other on a daily basis, like embracing each other's goals. Build each other on a daily basis like embracing each other's goals. Somebody comes to you and they say for example, I used to hear it all the time when I was just a deputy a deputy come in and I'd say hey, what's your goal? I want to go, I want to be patrol one day. Sweet, let me show you how to get there.

Speaker 2: 1:01:13

You know, this is the mindset be where your feet are, come in, you know, be the best at this job, and that's what's going to scream about your performance when it comes time for you to move on to other things. As opposed to what I used to hear back in 01, 02, and all the way up until even the last few years, some people were like, well, you'll never get there. I've been doing this 15 years, I didn't get there. Well also.

Speaker 2: 1:01:40

But that person is not saying that they tried either. They didn't. Sure, you know, if you tried, the laws of physics will tell you as long as I keep moving in this direction, I'm eventually going to get there, right, you know, one of these days. And so just kind of teaching folks how to pivot, that Some of the other things too. People aren't interruptions. There are individuals that are seeking knowledge, and they can be, you know, they can actually present opportunities to make some really good changes.

Speaker 2: 1:02:08

So, be available. You know, when these, when these folks want to come interact and they come with initial issues or complaints. One, let's get them on the right track of that, because, in the name of venting, if all you do is vent and there's never a solution involved, well then, is that really healthy? You're not getting anything. No, because you're just, you're dwelling. You're dwelling in that process. And so, talking about how to vent with a solution because one thing I learned from being a leader is sometimes the best solution is that of the boots on the ground, because they are interacting on a regular basis. Make sure that we're available, Make sure that they have the opportunity to interact in a healthy manner that actually feeds success.

Speaker 1: 1:03:00

As a leader, if the only voice you're listening to is your own, you're not leading. Yeah, absolutely, you're not leading.

Speaker 2: 1:03:07

And you know there's so many things that can be said to that. I always told people, you know, when I would interact, and whether it be even just to sit down for 10 minutes and have a conversation about whatever it is that's on their mind, one of the things that I would hear is you know, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about that. Or you know, I've talked to other people and nobody's given me that advice. And I was like and I said then what does that say for who you surround yourself with? For who you surround yourself with, go, seek answers, fact find from people you know are going to feed you the information you need to gear you for success.

Speaker 2: 1:03:47

Yeah, you know, and if you, do that, if you do that, if you seek it, you know, and that's how you get in front of that rumor mill of corrections. I tell people all the time I am a rumor killer. Right, you hear something that sounds conspiracy theorist, because now they're crossing over into that hostile attribution bias. That's what that mindset takes you. Everything becomes conspiracy and it takes away your ability to enjoy even each other's success. So somebody gets promoted. Oh, they only got that because they know this, or they only got that because of this. Well, no, they got it because it was their time and they worked really hard. But we're allowing that mindset, that hostile attribution bias, to just sabotage us and then that becomes our reputation. And then we wonder why nobody wants to touch us. How come they're not picking me? Probably because of the attitude I'm emulating. You know I'm emulating. You know that I'm pushing now.

Speaker 1: 1:04:43

Yeah, I learned pretty early on watching when people didn't get promoted. You find out more about that person and the supervisor they'll be on how they handle the rejection than you ever will on finding you know when they get promoted or accepted. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:05:00

A hundred percent, and it just it blows my mind how people act differently. Like just so, some of the feedback that we got just from colleagues and then individuals that taught this at their agency, was the ability to attempt to apply this to their lives. So they're actually taking active steps in how they interact. And so, for example, when I see colleagues go, they'll say something that's very conspiracy-ish and then you'll see one of the others jump in and say you know what? I don't think when that person woke up this morning and made that policy change, I don't think, while they were eating their eggs and bacon this morning, that they said, oh, they can't wait to tick you off with this policy change. I think that's, and you know what. And to see them go my gosh, like you catch yourself and you start to make those active changes, and that's good culture yeah, that's good culture to see that kind of stuff happening you know, and so I had a old colleague of mine, josh Barber love him to death.

Speaker 2: 1:06:05

I mean, josh worked together at the prison 22 years ago and you know he he now works for another agency. But he came and took that training to his agency. He came down to Montgomery and sat through it. He loved it, took it back and then he shot me a message not too long ago that said that that went down as the favorite course of that year's in-service and that they really received it and I knew if anybody could really sell it. He's got the ability to just really interact well and so tell me what's going on with the training now.

Speaker 1: 1:06:38

I know you've kind of broadened its scope recently, so tell me about that.

Speaker 2: 1:06:42

Yes, so it got. It got a lot of exposure. So I, um, I had the recent well, I won't say recent now, cause it's been quite a bit of time, but I guess about a year ago, uh, I interacted with, uh, a company called Art Tactical. I went to one of their trainings at another agency. It was a de-escalation course and it was phenomenal A week-long de-escalation, specific for corrections, was it Tim?

Speaker 1: 1:07:10

It was Tim and Ian. Ian, yep yeah. We had Tim on here, episode 105. Okay, yeah, he was on the podcast here with Art tactical, so okay, great instructor so I tell you I was blown away at their ability to interact.

Speaker 2: 1:07:28

You know a lot of folks that we get hyped up on all that physical training where me de-escalation falls right down that behavior category that I really, really just enjoy and I was so blown away at their professionalism and how they interacted. I thought, you know what you know, I want to see some of the other courses they had to offer, and so I did. I looked at them and we ended up having an event where I got to interact with Tim a little more and his colleague, his director of operations for the West Coast, tim Higgins, and there was just a real click there. I got to kind of sit and brainstorm with him and I was telling him about this training and he was just really into it. Of course, you know we had a lot of time that we were able to kind of discuss that. We had a Zoom over it, we discussed it in detail. I sent him a full-blown synopsis on it, full lesson plan breakdown, because it includes tabletop exercises. It gets people interacting with each other. You want those generations communicating and we're also doing it. There are very many times that it's quite humorous because we love to laugh at our own behaviors times. That is quite humorous because we love to laugh at our own behaviors but to see them interact that well.

Speaker 2: 1:08:40

And he said you know, I just I love this course. And he asked me what I thought. He said how would you like to launch this? And we'll send it across the country? And I said, tim, I said nothing would make me happier in the world. I, my goal out of this is I want people young people coming into this field and people that are in, because that's the beautiful thing about the training is it addresses new, existing leadership, all three categories, all areas of your career, from beginning to end. And then how to not take it home and ways to, if you start seeing this in your home, some ways that you can transition that out. And so I said so if I can save them some of the grief and mistakes that I made over the year that I think really kind of robbed me of the experience because I didn't know how to process what was happening.

Speaker 2: 1:09:40

If we can give them that on a proactive approach and start seeing the response, then we're giving them the tools to change that culture themselves as they move into those positions and when you look at the end result, you're bettering your communication amongst your staff because we're getting a better understanding from all those generational perspectives, because we talk about all those things during those trainings. So it's interesting when you start getting multiple generations in and we start talking about the things about other generations that we find troubling and in reality you start to see a real similarity when you start actually putting those things to paper. And so, anyway, they picked it up and then, on top of that, they brought me on as a master instructor with them and I'm going to start moving forward with them and we're going to try to, you know, change the culture of corrections from all facets, you know, from your mental to your physical. We will. We want to be able to just go across the world and right now we're in several States and a few countries. Cool.

Speaker 1: 1:10:45

So I'll put the link to our tactical on here in the show notes. Make sure that everybody can get there. If somebody wanted to get ahold of you, what's the best way to get ahold of you?

Speaker 2: 1:10:54

They can get ahold of me via phone or via email. I'll be happy to give both. My email is josh at art technet, and then my phone number is 9, 3, 1, 6, 2, 4, 44, 44. Easiest phone number ever.

Speaker 1: 1:11:16

Perfect. Yeah, I'll get that put in the show notes. If you were going to recommend a book, if you could think of a book out there that somebody needed to read that might give them heads up on some of this. Have you got one right off the top of your head?

Speaker 2: 1:11:28

oh my goodness you something that meant something to you when you were reading well, uh, so that well, there was one recently that I've read.

Speaker 2: 1:11:36

You know, we we've been really focused on leadership and you, you know there's some books out there, but there was one that I didn't think that I would care for until I read it and then I realized, wait a minute, that's actually a really that's a really good book as far as for the foundations of leadership and so, yeah, the Five Dysfunctions of a Team. That was a great one. That was a great book. That was a great book. I really enjoyed the read. That was the last book that I read, uh, a couple of well, about two months ago, right, so that was a really good one. As far as a team building, and you know how to go about that and he writes.

Speaker 1: 1:12:15

all of his books are written and I can't. I've got his. I can't think of his name right now. I'll put it in the show notes but all of his books are written from the point of view of a story to lead you through. So it's kind of interesting.

Speaker 2: 1:12:28

It's not just reading and regurgitating, it's actually a story that has a moral or a purpose as you get through it. Well, and I enjoyed enjoyed the fact too that in dealing with that team that they were trying to to build and reshape, there was every type of employee on that team and just the the the ways that they dealt and interacted with each individual and every one of them was handled differently, which really the fact it wasn't a mass dealing with. So, for example, they were dealing with this one individual. Everybody didn't feel that blowback. That was an immediate correction on this individual away from everybody else, and they were solving problems.

Speaker 2: 1:13:13

And I just really enjoyed that. I thought that was a great read.

Speaker 1: 1:13:16

I'll get that book put in there if anybody wants to take a look and link that Well. Thanks, josh. Thanks for stopping by the a great read. I'll get that book put in there if anybody wants to take a look and link that Well. Thanks, josh. Thanks for stopping by the Prison Officer Podcast. I appreciate it. It's a good conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:13:24

Absolutely, Mike. I appreciate you having me. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 1:13:28

Anytime, I will talk at you later and have a great night. All right, brother, you too. Hey, before we go, I'd like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors. Omni Real-Time Locating System is a company I've been working closely with for years. I'm proud to be a part of this innovative team that's developed the best real-time locating system on the market today for your jail or prison.

Speaker 1: 1:13:51

Omni's PREA-compliant real-time monitoring technology is the very best way to track and record your inmates' locations, their movements, their interactions, throughout every square inch of your correctional facility. Imagine getting an alarm the second an escape happens, or an alert that lets you know when an inmate's heart rate drops below a set level. To learn more about Omni, go to wwwomnirtlscom. That's omnirtlscom. That's omnirtlscom. Or you can click on today's show notes to get in the information guide. Omni Real-Time Locating System is a powerful tool specifically designed for the modern correctional professional. If you haven't done so, please take a moment to like my podcast or, better yet, hit the subscribe button so that you'll be notified when the next episode comes out. Thanks for listening and let's be safe out there.