110: The Silent Service: Finding Purpose in a Life of Sacrifice - Interview w/LTC Dave Grossman

Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman brings decades of expertise to this powerful conversation about the psychology of violence, trauma response, and the vital role corrections professionals play in society.

Drawing from his groundbreaking research that shaped books like "On Combat" and "On Killing," Grossman frames correctional officers as society's essential "sheepdogs" – those who willingly face danger so others don't have to. "They are truly God's agent to do good in this world," he reflects, highlighting how corrections work balances public safety with offering second chances at redemption.

The discussion delves deep into practical tools for managing the unique psychological challenges of corrections work. From techniques to prevent PTSD (like controlled breathing exercises and using water as an emotional "reset button") to cognitive behavioral strategies for managing stress reactions, Grossman offers actionable insights born from his extensive research. He emphasizes the importance of self-control: "Nobody ever respects our temper tantrum; they respect our calm."

Most surprising is Grossman's compelling research on sleep deprivation, revealing how inadequate sleep dramatically increases risks for PTSD, depression, and suicide – crucial information for those working overtime and irregular shifts. His practical sleep hygiene recommendations aren't merely for comfort but potentially life-saving interventions for professionals regularly exposed to trauma.

Throughout the conversation runs a thread of purpose and meaning. "Sometimes the greatest love is not to sacrifice your life but to live a life of sacrifice," Grossman notes, validating the profound impact of daily corrections work that often goes unrecognized by society. Whether preventing crime, facilitating rehabilitation, or protecting communities, corrections professionals provide an essential s

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Chapters

• 1:09 Episode Introduction and Sponsor
• 2:13 Lt. Colonel Dave Grossman Introduction
• 8:19 The Nobility of Corrections Work
• 13:09 Understanding Violence and Combat Psychology
• 22:04 PTSD and Controlling Emotional Responses
• 35:04 Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Techniques
• 39:04 Hypervigilance and Self-Control
• 43:54 Martial Arts and Violence Preparation
• 47:49 Sleep Deprivation and Mental Health
• 57:54 Sleep Hygiene and Life-Saving Practices
• 1:05:44 Closing Thoughts and Final Message

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:35

Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:37

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Speaker 1: 1:39

Hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell, today's guest. I'm sure most of you already recognize. I am super excited. When I started this podcast I never thought I'd get the chance to talk to Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman. He has written some books that have been very motivational and inspirational in my life and in my job and of course many of you know he wrote On Combat, on Killing, on. Hunting is another one. I'm a big avid hunter and fisherman. So he's written many other books and I'm sure we'll get into some of those, but I'm excited to have him on the podcast. He studies violence and most people don't understand violence, do they, sir?

Speaker 2: 2:30

No, they don't, Michael. And you know it's funny you mention hunting. We just throw it right out front. You know those who hunt they have killed and they're in tune with the cycle of life and they're in tune with the taking of life. And it's funny when I talk corrections I've had the honor to do a lot of work on corrections, especially fairly recently. We talk about the fact that and law enforcement. You know, just to give a law enforcement example, similar in corrections, that you know there's a lot of cops in our department that they walk into a bar and people want to push them, people want to test them. So there's a fair number of cops that people don't want to push them, they don't want to test them and when you cut right down to it, they're hunters, they're predators.

Speaker 2: 3:25

And I talk about the book on hunting and this has real application that you can't understand who we are without understanding hunting. And throughout the history of our species we've been hunters. Throughout the history of our species we've been hunters. If you take the existence of our species and cram, it call it 24 hours, up until the last six minutes, all we did was hunt. Yeah, we were always in the middle of the food chain. There were things that hunted us and things that we hunted. But it's no fun to be hunted. We don't want to be hunted, we want to be the hunter. And so the decision in life is you know I've got a couple of dogs here that this is Charlie. He's my hearing dog. My ears are shot out and Charlie, he's sitting there laughing the whole time. We're just fine. He's never killed anything but a tennis ball, you know. But he's a predator and he makes no bones about it. That's why we love cats and dogs. They're hunters.

Speaker 2: 4:23

And so I just tell you it's not about hunting although hunting is the best way to exercise that mindset it's about making the decision in life that I am the hunter and not the hunted, that I am in control of my life, and that's funny. You've mentioned that. It's a funny thing to begin with, but I've had an awful lot of worker corrections and you know I'd like to establish a few things up front. You talk about facing violence, and they do that. Right, and it's funny.

Speaker 2: 4:56

People come up to buy a book, you know, and I ask them you know who are you with, what do you do? And I usually ask him how do you like it. It really astounds me how many corrections you know prison, you know jail Say I love what I do. And I ask them why? And one lieutenant told me she said I've been able to convince an awful lot of people that one bad decision doesn't have to define your life. Another correction sergeant he told me. He said you know, nobody on the planet does a better job of giving people a second chance at life.

Speaker 2: 5:45

You know, we talk about the recidivism rate. You know the ones that go back and re-offend, of course, but we don't talk about the vast, vast majority who do not re-offend, but the vast vast majority who truly are corrected. You know the term penitentiary comes from the word penitent, to be remorseful, to be sorrowful, you know, and they might not necessarily be remorseful, but they've learned a lesson in life. And then there are the ones that say you know, we look in the eyes of scary people every day and you know the world is a better place because they're behind bars. We look in the eyes of scary people every day and you know the world is a better place because they're behind bars.

Speaker 2: 6:29

Right, and there's value in that. There is, there's great value in that. And just knowing, hey, you know, my children don't have to face this guy. You know however bad they are. There's value in number one, knowing that we're giving them another chance, but number two, saying, yeah, this is not a nice person, right, and the world's a better place because my spouse doesn't have to face this person. My children don't have to face this person because they're in here.

Speaker 1: 6:56

Absolutely. Yeah, it took me a while in my own career. It took me a little while to, because in corrections, you know we don't get the pat on the back that maybe law enforcement does or some other you know positions out there. And it took me a while to figure out how I was a public servant. I came from a family of public servants. I grew up with cops and firefighters and highway patrolmen and these were the people my family hung around and so I thought I was walking into public service. But you know, a few years into my career I'm arguing with that and I'm looking as I'm driving home when I looked out across the city and I thought, you know, my job does matter. If I wasn't there there would be crime, people would be being, you know, treated bad, stolen from, robbed, murdered, all that stuff. So I had to learn to look there and not for the pat on the back, because you don't usually get it in our job and that's a shame.

Speaker 2: 7:50

It should be better respected. So we have to do that ourselves. I'll give you an angle on this. You know there's a faith perspective, everything, and it really can be critical. One of the things you know I tell all my first responders you see a lot of bad things every day and you can't help but ask the question. It's really not about faith, it's an existential question.

Speaker 2: 8:14

Every human being asks how could a loving God allow these terrible things to happen? And the answer is really, really important. And the answer is that your loving God would not make you his puppet. A loving God would let people make their own decisions. You know, have you ever heard if you truly love something, let it go. If it comes back, it's really yours. That's how much God loves us. He loves us enough to let us make our own decision. That means a lot of people make really bad decisions and a lot of really bad things happen. When we say God, why don't you do something? He said I did, I sent you. You are his agent. You are truly God's agent to do good in this world, to give people a second chance, to carry people off the streets. You're truly a public servant, and I talk in my presentations about the opposite of evil.

Speaker 2: 9:07

What's the opposite of evil? The opposite of evil is love. Evil's absence of love just as darkness's absence of light. And Jesus said greater love is no one than this that they lay down their life for their friends. But listen, here's the key. There are many ways to lay down your life.

Speaker 2: 9:27

There are many ways to lay down your life, and sometimes the greatest love is not to sacrifice your life but to live a life of sacrifice. And that's what corrections is. Nobody's in this job to get stinking, filthy American Dream rich. Nobody's in this job to be a famous celebrity, at least not legally. When you chose this profession, you really chose. To a certain degree, you chose a life of sacrifice, and we must believe your sacrifice for a noble and worthy purpose.

Speaker 2: 9:56

And so we began by talking about facing violence and how most people are not wired to do that. But when you face that, you say I faced that violence today, so my children didn't have to. And again, sometimes the greatest love is not to sacrifice your life but to live a life of sacrifice. And for all those that are out there walking that path, it is a sheepdog path. They are sheepdogs. They are protecting the flock, they are keeping the wolf at arm's distance and giving people a second chance at life. It is a noble and virtuous endeavor. They are truly public servants being of service, sure, and without them it would be chaos and despair. Sure.

Speaker 1: 10:45

Corrections is very much like the sheepdog analogy because if you'll look out there in the field, when the sheepdog's doing his job, rarely do the sheep even know what the sheepdog's doing.

Speaker 2: 10:57

Oh, I see Corrections, is that?

Speaker 1: 10:59

way they're standing in the wall. They're doing the job 24-7, 365. Even know what the sheep dog's doing and corrections is that way they're standing in the wall.

Speaker 2: 11:07

They're doing the job 24-7, 365, but the sheep don't want to know. Yes, and that's okay. You know, sometimes the greatest love is not to sacrifice your life but to live a life of sacrifice and quiet service. You know, we talk about the silent professional. The quiet professional, the silent service. Just go out there and do that job every day, knowing that the world's a better place because of it. You're not selling widgets to housewives, you know you're not flipping burgers at McDonald's. Somebody's got to do those jobs. Those jobs are important.

Speaker 2: 11:39

But if nobody did what you did, if nobody was in corrections, what would happen? What would happen? What would we have? Chaos and despair. Yeah, and you know we could lock them all up and never see daylight, but then we'd never give them that chance for a second chance at life. Sure, and you know there might be some cheap, effective way to do it, and sometimes there's value in that. But the truth is that if we're going to give them that second chance at life, if we're going to give them that chance to see that one bad decision didn't have to define their life, then we've got to give that extra effort. And nobody on the planet does a better job than you're doing in this business right now.

Speaker 1: 12:23

Excellent. Yeah, I appreciate that. I appreciate your recognition of that, you know. I would like to ask a couple of questions of you because I'm interested. What got you interested in this field of study? Because I don't think this is something that's you know on the course lecture series when you go to college, you know. What was it that got you started?

Speaker 2: 12:48

Well, you know, when I was growing up, my dad started as a cop and then he got a job that ended up moving a lot. Every 18 months we would move and there was always a lot of bullies. You know, every time you moved there was somebody that was going to test you and I just I hated bullies and I fought a lot. My dad taught me to fight and I just grew up with this deep hatred of bullies. But I grew up fighting a lot.

Speaker 2: 13:15

As soon as the martial arts was available, I mean the first little dojo in our little town, I was in Pine Bluffs, wyoming, and a guy had kind of a kind of a feeder school, an external dojo from Cheyenne, and and I started going. I was in junior high, I wanted to be in the martial arts to confront bullies and I, you know, and the bullies knew to leave me alone, but I, I would. I would get in front of him and say, leave him alone. He said what's got to do with you? I said you're being a bully, you don't need to do this, leave him alone or you've got to answer to me. And so I always had this call to confront the wolf, to confront the bad guy and I ended up enlisting in 1974 in the 82nd Airborne Division and we had Vietnam veterans all around us and we wanted to know what combat was going to be like. You know.

Speaker 2: 14:09

I'd gotten on an awful lot of fistfights over the years and soldiers, you know we'd get in scraps, but what's going to be like in combat and they wouldn't say it was this taboo topic? I realize now it's like asking about sex, very intimate personal process. I mean, think about hunters. You know, as a hunter, you know when you fire your rifle you don't hear the shot and the ears don't know. Now, every hunter I've ever asked, ever asked, said yeah, but nobody has ever sat around the camp for it. You know, I didn't hear the shot, my, nobody talks about that, they live in their own little silo.

Speaker 2: 14:45

Well, combat's like that, to to the third power, full of full of experiences that nobody really talks about slow motion, time, auditory exclusion, re-experience in the event. Uh, you know, what we've come to learn and we need to talk about is go further along what becomes PTSD and how to prevent it from happening. But nobody ever talked about that. And we would ask about it and nobody would talk. And then you know, fast forward, captain Grossman, army Ranger en route to be a West Point psych professor doing my graduate work on this subject, and I would ask people and they would tell me. It's like you know, if somebody say how's the sex life, how many times you get it on, what do you? You wouldn't tell them. But at Masters and Johnson and some scholarly study came in, you might tell them. Tell them the truth. And so that became my first book on killing Right and I thought what was at the heart of combat was the act of killing and a lot of the people.

Speaker 2: 15:45

I interviewed, world War II vets and Vietnam vets by the hundreds. But what I had trouble wrapping my mind around is they were 18-year-old kids, drafted off the street when this happened. Yeah, and I got this mature, dignified man in front of me and I can't wrap my mind around it. It took me a long time to realize that for an 18-year-old kid, you know, a few short months after he, you know, ambushed some guy done him no harm, that can be hard. For a mature individual who's prepared themselves for a lifetime, for a mature individual who's using deadly force to protect others, it's just not that big a deal. And so my research evolved into my second book on combat, which is really the more important book, and I'll tell you you mentioned it, michael, and I think we can recommend it. During the pandemic it became a big bestseller in the medical community for the stress of being in the medical community in a pandemic.

Speaker 2: 16:40

And then it's been translated in a lot of languages and it was translated in Ukrainian and in January of 2024, it won a Ukrainian Book of the Year award. And in May and June of 2024, they brought me out there to train their troops. So I was 67 years old at the time 67 years old to spend my summer vacation in the war zone training their troops. But they really embraced that book. It's really cool. You've got a copy of On Combat behind you. I've got one behind me.

Speaker 2: 17:12

The cover changed at one point, but it's still the same basic book, a little updated, and the whole sheep, the wolf and the sheepdog thing came out of that. It really built from that. And then we did the sheepdog kids book and it's really important about being the protector, being the one that protects the flock and making that decision to protect the flock. And that's what the people listening to this podcast are. They are the sheepdogs, they are the ones protecting the flock. You know they go home every night and they see gentle, decent people all around them who are able to go on about their lives because you do that hard, dirty, difficult job every day. Yeah, and that's the sheepdog.

Speaker 1: 17:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:54

That's great. That's the evolution of my research, you know, and where it evolved to that understanding of slow motion, time, tunnel vision, memory gaps, memory distortions, the crazy things that happen in a life and death event that don't happen anywhere else except in hunting to a certain degree. And so it all evolved. I've got 16 books out there. We talked about the faith side of the house. It really for those. I wrote the book on spiritual combat.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Yep.

Speaker 2: 18:25

And it really what I talked about about. You know, why does God allow these terrible things to happen? Is to take that whole thing a step further. If you're a person of faith, if you think there might be a life after this life, then it's infinitely more important than what happens in this world.

Speaker 2: 18:46

In the end everybody's going to die physically. In the end, every nation falls over my dead body. In the end our son will die and life on this earth will go away, but eternity continues. So wrap your mind around that. A few more years on this earth, a little less suffering on this earth, is nothing, nothing, nothing compared to one life in eternity. So I tell people, if you're a person of faith, don't let the things of this world pull you down. Take a deep breath and kind of take that big picture and there's value. I think it's really hard to sustain this. I know you had a podcast previously looking at you know, kind of prison versus faith and it can be really hard to sustain yourself without that. And there's value in that. And again, I think my book on spiritual combat we wrote who wrote the book Bulletproof Marriage, which became a—.

Speaker 1: 19:41

Highest divorce rate of about any profession.

Speaker 2: 19:44

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:46

Corrections.

Speaker 2: 19:47

I was at a conference and this book we wrote this 90-day devotional, you know, 15 minutes a day sheepdog and spouse Would anybody really do that? So it became a Christian Book Award final. We got like 700 five-star reviews on Amazon Sheepdog and Spouse Would anybody really do that? So it became a Christian Book Award finalist. We got like 700 five-star reviews on Amazon.

Speaker 2: 20:03

A couple came up to me. It was so cool. They came up to me in a conference I was in just recently. They said we were 12 days away from divorce when we started going through this. That's got to feel good and that's pretty cool. And you can look at the reviews on Amazon and see how people did all 90 days and then did it again and so you can leverage your faith and your relationship and make it a mutual endeavor. And so I've got 16 books published now and plinking away at some others. But it's been a good ride and it all started with wanting to confront bullies, wanting to protect people and then being in the military and wanting to know what real combat would be like and people not saying and then I wrote the book. Nobody's ever done a book like this before.

Speaker 2: 20:58

You know it's makes it so cool and people like you who've been able to embrace the book. It's just terribly rewarding. And I'll be 69 years old next year or next month. Next month be 69. And it's my prayer to do this for another 20 years. I just want to stay in this fight as long as I can and just try to empower my sheepdogs to the best of my ability, to stay in the fight and to keep doing this worthy endeavor.

Speaker 1: 21:28

You were one of the first people to actually talk about it and I don't know, I'm sure thousands of people have told you, but it was so comforting to have somebody talk about the stuff you talked about non-combat, you know, because in prison and that's my field you see so much violence. I've seen violence that most people can't even imagine. Human on human not necessarily I haven't killed anybody myself, but the violence I've been around day after day would stagger most people and nobody talks about it. Like you said, said it's kind of this quiet thing, so you were the first one to kind of give voice to some of that. Yeah, question, I've got. Um, you talked about psd there. Ptsd for a minute. Corrections is a little different, you know, than some other other PTSD. A lot of those are one traumatic event, you know, either having to kill somebody or being there during a traumatic event With corrections. It's lots of these smaller traumatic events, sometimes for weeks, sometimes for years. Do you see a difference in the way that manifests itself in the individual?

Speaker 2: 22:39

Well, first let's talk about the commonality In general PTSD. You have a traumatic event and then you re-experience the event. So during an event, sympathetic nervous system kicks in. That's fight or flight mechanism. Your heart is pounding and your body, and it's very powerful. And what happens is a neural network is established. I talk about, you know, a kid touches a hot stove and you're five years old. How many times did you have to touch a hot stove? Just one time, just one time. And that neural network was established. Don't ever touch that stove again. I call it the puppy inside the midbrain, the autonomic nervous system. Fight or flight, feed and breed, that's all he does. And that puppy inside blows a hole through the screen door, pees in your lap and says don't ever touch that stove again. And it works. So in corrections, you have a traumatic event, but then you do it again and again, and again. And if you don't separate the memory from the emotions, you're just reinforcing that relationship. So I'll give you an example Arkansas State Trooper, first gunfight bad guy's down, he's alive.

Speaker 2: 23:59

Happy end of the story. So a week later he and his wife are sitting in the bleachers watching their daughter at a swim meet. A starter's gun goes off when he doesn't expect it. Boom, he said. My heart's pounding, gasping for air, drenched with sweat. His wife thought he was having a heart attack. He didn't know what was happening.

Speaker 2: 24:21

Now, this is important. This is not PTSD. Re-experiencing the event, having that sympathetic nervous system kick off again, is normal. It's a survival mechanism. Right? You know, the lion roared and you jumped, jumped out of the way and that saved your life. And from that time on in time, a lion roars, boom, you know, you kick in. So these are survival mechanisms, but we got to bring them under control. We got to separate the memory from the emotions. So the kind of tools we have to separate the memory from the emotion. Let's say that you were. You know cops had a gunfight on a particular street and they drive down that street and they re-experience the event. It triggers the memory. A corrections officer was attacked in this particular cell block and he walks in that cell block and his heart starts going up and he's re-experiencing the event. The sympathetic nervous are kicking off. This is not PTSD, it's normal. How you deal with it will decide whether or not it becomes PTSD, and what you got to do is separate the memory from the emotions.

Speaker 2: 25:33

Now we're talking on combat. We're talking on combat, about the breathing exercise. You can always just hop and breathe. You know I've got collections of case studies and emails that people have sent me, organized by subject, and of all the subjects, the breathing is by far the largest folder. To just stop and breathe, breathe in four, hold four out four, hold four, and you truly are.

Speaker 2: 26:03

So what we got there, the midbrain is fight or flight, feed and breathe, and it's the autonomic nervous system, things that aren't under conscious control, and your breathing, your breathing, is not under conscious control. If you had a conscious control of your breathing when you sleep, you'd die, right, right, but you take a deep breath right now. Breathing when you sleep, you'd die right, right, right, but you take a deep breath right now, breathe in. What did you just do? You pulled your breathing from unconscious to conscious control, right. And when you reach out and grab conscious control of the breathing, the whole autonomic nervous system comes with it. It pulls you from fight or flight to rest and digest. Right system comes with it. It pulls you from fight or flight to rest and digest. The most powerful tool we found. What I tell a lot of people is to walk with a bottle of water in your hand. You got that bottle of water in your hand and you begin to re-experience that event. It is so powerful to stop the big swig of water from getting control.

Speaker 2: 27:00

Now the therapy for PTSD remover. I'm separating the memory from the emotion. I was interviewing World War II vets and Vietnam vets by the hundreds and if they became emotional, if they began to re-experience the event, I'd make them stop and breathe. Today we put a bottle of water in front of them, make them stop and take a big swig of water. So a friend of mine is a therapist for a major federal agency and if one of their guys in a deadly force incident, they fly her in and she debriefs them and she would have them talk about the incident and every time they start to become emotional right, that you began she'd make them stop and breathe. Today she puts a bottle of water in front of them, right. And every time they start to become emotional she makes them stop and take a puts a bottle of water in front of them and every time they start to become emotional she makes them stop and take a big swig of water. And she told me she said Dave. She said six years of college, 14 years of practice and that stupid bottle of water is doing more good than anything I've ever done. So I want to give you that life hack. But there's another way.

Speaker 2: 28:09

Now what we're talking about to a certain degree is sympathetic nervous system fight or flight and the essence of resiliency and resiliency are people who do not get PTSD. The essence of resiliency is really manifested in Viktor Frankl, a guy in a Nazi death camp who did not get PTSD. He walked out of a Nazi death camp, a human skeleton, enduring unthinkable evil, and he said I realized the only thing in the universe those Nazi bastards couldn't control is how I choose to respond. The only thing in the universe you can control, the only thing is yourself and how you choose to respond. And so you don't lose your temper. You give it away. Now, that's easy to say, but what you do is learn to control it.

Speaker 2: 29:06

So we've got a lot of people smarties and you got your little smartie there, a cop told me. He said you know what? Somebody give me the finger, I get a smartie. The only problem is you're never happy with just one of those little things, see. So he said. So I want another smartie, but I can't have one unless somebody's ugly to me right. So I drive around waving and smiling at people. Somebody gives me a finger. Ah, I get another Smartie.

Speaker 2: 29:36

And what I just described to you is actual cognitive behavior therapy, cbt, cognitive behavior therapy. Through your actions and your thoughts, you rewire the way you process what happens. They gave you the finger, they're trying to offend you, they're trying to harm you, they're trying to hurt you and for you it means, oh, I get a piece of candy and you actually rewire the way they talk about it. I talk about people having a bag of M&Ms and popping an M&M in your mouth and you chew that. And you chew that and you swallow that and it pulls you from fight or flight to rest and digest you. And I remember Kojak with a lollipop, and what he was doing with that lollipop was he was actually having that cognitive behavior therapy in which he'd crunch on that thing kind of regain control. And so I tell people that re-experience.

Speaker 2: 30:36

In the event, you know, you do a cell entry and all of a sudden your heart is pounding because the last time this terrible thing happened. But now you do that cell entry and you use your breathing, or you take that big swig of water, or you know, immediately afterwards you just pop that, uh, that smarty in your mouth. Or you know that tootsie rolls. And when I used to recommend tootsie rolls and cops of san dave, I was eating way too many tootsie rolls so I switched to smarties. It's my little chill pill.

Speaker 2: 31:08

But just remember, you don't lose your temper, you give it away. It's the only thing in the universe you can control. And so controlling that physiological arousal and really it's what makes us human. You know we got fight or flight, feed and breed. And one of the first things we learn is not to crap ourselves. That's hard. You ever potty train a kid or house train a dog. That's hard. But we learn not to crap ourselves and we've got to learn to control our temper. And if you lose your temper, I tell people you know there's never a good time to crap yourself and there's never a good time to lose your temper. And it's easy to say it ain't that easy to do. And there's never a good time to lose your temper. And it's easy to say it ain't that easy to do.

Speaker 2: 31:54

You know, I was not as good a father as I could have been. The kids turned out okay in spite of me, but I was a better grandfather, you know. I asked how many of y'all got kids? How many of y'all ever looked at your kids? How many of y'all looked at your parents with your kids and said are you the same ones that raised me? Absolutely. I said well, they're not, do you understand? They're 20 years old.

Speaker 2: 32:14

It's called maturity and you want to get it as fast as you can. It's called self-control. So we talk about the laconic Spartan, the stoic Roman, the inscrutable samurai, the stiff upper lip Brit and the day we talk about the quiet professional. Those are all different ways and the same thing self-control. It's classic Stoicism. It's completely compatible with Christianity. We've all heard the serenity prayer. Right, you know God, grant me the strength to do the things I can't, to let go of the things I can't, and the wisdom to tell the difference right. And that's what we're talking about is, just do the things you can and let go of everything else. The only thing the universe can control is yourself. So when you begin to re-experience that event, then you take the tools available to separate the memory from the emotion.

Speaker 2: 33:04

Now, this is a critical part of the equation we're really really good at treating PTSD. We get better all the time, right. And how can we help other people if we can't help ourselves? It's okay to say I'm not okay and it's okay to get help Right and know that the help will help, to expect the help to help and come out the other end stronger. You know, we look at the World War II veterans, the greatest generation.

Speaker 2: 33:35

Nietzsche said what doesn't kill us only makes us stronger, right, nietzsche stole that from the Bible 2000 years before Nietzsche. Romans chapter 5, the Bible says we glory in tribulation For tribulation. Work of patience, patience, experience, experience, hope and hope make it not a shame. The idea of being stronger from the bad things in life is not a new idea. So you see, these bad things happen to you and the puppy inside panics and you go down that cell block, you make that cell entry and the puppy pumps back up. You've got to get that puppy under control. And the swig of water, the breathing, you know, the Smarty, the M&Ms, those are all different tools to pull you from fight or flight, to risk and not test. But if you can't do it yourself, the docs got a whole bag full of tricks. One of the good tricks the docs got.

Speaker 2: 34:23

You need to know about because it sounds crazy called EMDR eye movement, desensitization, reprocessing and what you do is you follow a visual stimulus while you talk about what happened and the puppy. Is a simple mechanism, you can only do one thing at a time. And while you're following that visual stimulus, the puppy's in the front yard chasing a ball and for the first time you can talk about it. You can think about it without the puppy peeing in your lap, and oftentimes just one or two sessions of EMDR will completely separate the memory from the emotions and send you down the path, not just healing what's called post-traumatic growth.

Speaker 2: 35:08

We've all heard about post-traumatic stress and if it gets bad enough it's post-traumatic stress disorder. But you come out the other end with post-traumatic growth. Our corrections officers, our cops, our military veterans we know they're strong people. We know they're stronger for the experience. The World War II generation, the greatest generation they were living examples of post-traumatic growth. Oh, absolutely yeah, go into corrections, go into those bad situations, know them. They will make me stronger, seeking post-traumatic growth, and I think that's really an important thing to talk about.

Speaker 1: 35:46

Sure, absolutely. That's really important thing to talk about. Sure, absolutely. You know one of the and the techniques that you were talking about there. One of the problems they have in corrections is hypervigilance. You know you're walking around a thousand inmates here at this level all day long and then you walk home to a three-year-old who does not understand it, and it seems like a couple of those techniques might be a good way to decompress Absolutely might be a good way to decompress, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 36:10

Take that moment. You know, if you can control it with these inmates, then how much more so can you control it with your children? Right? I wish somebody had told me that, as a young father, as a young sergeant, I wish somebody had told me that, yeah, you know, my dad lost his temper and I lost my temper. I thought that's what people did, but I realized nobody ever respects our temper, tantrum, respect our calm. And what do our children need from us? And it's not easy, you know we fail. God forgives us, forgive yourself and move on. We fail, but we try to do a better job the next time. And really our family is an opportunity to get a little bit better at that. I, just two days ago, my wife and I just had our 50th wedding anniversary. Congratulations, thank you.

Speaker 2: 36:58

And I still lose my temper sometimes. It's just a little thing. You know, it's just a little word, it's not screaming, shouting, but it's just a little thing. But I recognize it and I keep trying to be a better person. It's really here. I am 68 years old, 69 in a month. It's really satisfying to say I am a better person than I was five years ago.

Speaker 2: 37:19

And we can keep doing that. We can keep being better people, wiser and with better self-control and better self-discipline, and that's the path of life. You know, the opposite of evil is love, and what God calls us to do is to love. Jesus said a new commandment I give you to love others as I have loved you. That's our goal, that's what God wants to love others as I have loved you. And remember, sometimes the greatest love is not to sacrifice your life, but to live a life of sacrifice. So those magnificent sheepdogs, those men and women in corrections, they are a living example of sacrifice for others. They're not doing it for you know, society is a better place because of what they do every day, and you've got to believe that, yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:12

Yeah, absolutely, and we got to teach them. You know, one of the ways that I got through my career was to become a trainer. I turned my focus to helping the others and getting them through it with my experience and my stuff. You know we talked about violence. How do we prepare that young correctional officer for the first time he's going or she's going to experience violence at a level like that? You know, I know the military has this very rigid. You know they put you through basic training. You're ready for it. I don't see that in law enforcement and corrections. We don't do that at the same level. What's some of the stuff we could do there?

Speaker 2: 38:54

Well, the truth is that the military doesn't do a very good job at all. Okay, the only thing is when the drill sergeant gets your face and shouts at you. You know some of the. In law enforcement, the very best things we do are the force on force engagements. You know ammunition and that's really it's. You know like firefighters have to face Robert E Howie fire. We face Robert E Howie bullets, right?

Speaker 2: 39:17

I think one of the best ways to prepare is the martial arts. I think it's a very good way to. You know, I grew up in the martial arts. I love the martial arts. I think it is the very best way. It martial arts. I love the martial arts. I think it is the very best way. It's a great thing you can do with your family. It's a great stress reliever, it's a great self-discipline and it teaches you to confront violence and to deal with violence as necessary. But let's lay a foundation, something I really want to talk about. Sure, one thing we know is this If your body is already under stress and then you face a stressful event, they amplify each other. So if you're malnourished, like the POWs or the Holocaust survivors, then the malnutrition, combined with what their captors did to them, those stressors amplify each other. Or if you're injured or ill, that's why the elderly can be so vulnerable. The physical infirmity of the elderly body combined with the traumatic event, these things amplify it. And if you are sleep deprived you're far more likely.

Speaker 1: 40:26

Most correctionalists are sleep deprived.

Speaker 2: 40:29

And that's what I want to talk about. This is the one thing. Remember. What's the one thing we can't control Is ourselves and sleep and getting sleep and allowing ourselves to sleep. And under stress there's things that attract us. We want to. You know, we escape into watching movies, you know, or we play video games and the truth is it's terribly counterproductive. Throughout human history, when soldiers weren't fighting, they went to sleep and they always got enough sleep and they needed a lot of sleep. Under stress, your body actually needs more sleep and they clean their weapons, they do what needed to be done and they'd sleep. And then we invented things like video games and TV shows.

Speaker 2: 41:14

So I trained a brigade of the 101st Airborne Division punching out to Iraq. So many of my units going back and forth have been able to train through all these years of war and the brigade command sergeant major. I talked about sleep and sleep management and sleep hygiene. We'll cover some of that. He said I was command sergeant major for a battalion deployed. Now that's an element right below brigade right? So he's promoted to brigade now and he's deploying again.

Speaker 2: 41:48

He said our battalion was in a barracks environment at night and combat patrols during the day. He said, told my troops it slides out at 2200. He said if I catch you up after 10 o'clock playing video games, I will take your video games, he said. A week later I had a closet overflowing with video games. He said these are good soldiers who wouldn't disobey an order, but they cannot not play those damn games. They want to give an illusion of control, to give an illusion of progress, and there's nothing wrong with that, unless they get in the way of your sleep. So here's the key thing to understand about sleep deprivation being sleep deprived puts your body under enormous stress and if something bad happens, let me show you a study here. It's a really important study that I really. But if you're sleep deprived, you're five times more likely to get PTSD, nine times more likely to have major depressive disorder and six times more likely to have a suicidal ideation. Wow, now this is not a causal relationship.

Speaker 2: 43:02

It's not even a correlational relationship. It's a toxic, interactive relationship. How do we get a handle on depression? It's hard, or suicide, how do you? But we can get a handle on sleep, and if you get sleep under control, all this other stuff comes with it. So what we've got to understand we live in a world in which there's all these desirable things to do.

Speaker 2: 43:26

Uh, so I was in Ukraine training their troops, right? Sure, I do two or three presentations a day, right? My book had been selected the Ukrainian Book of the Year Award there and I only had like a translation in only about an hour. I've got a son who just retired after nine combat tours. I got a grandson deployed right now who just retired after nine combat tours. I got a grandson deployed right now and I thought what if it was my son? What if my grandson and I had one hour to give them the best I had?

Speaker 2: 43:58

Now, half of it was talking about what happens in a traumatic event slow motion, time, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, how they're normal, how you experience it all the stuff we just talked about. But the other half was talking about sleep management and sleep hygiene and how critical it is to make sure people get sleep and so crazy things happen. Now, these were usually smaller groups, you know, you get more than 50 people, it becomes a target. So you know, we're just kind of a little ways back, you know, 50 miles back from the war zone, you know, and there'd be you know, 40 people there, most of them officers, right, and one. You know there'd be captains, majors, colonels, and one captain stood up and probably a company commander. He said well, the Russians, you never know if the Russians are going to bomb us. And he can't sleep. Now, that's not true. World War I, world War II, soldiers learn to sleep through anything. You can sleep through anything you can learn to. But he said you can't sleep, so I just play video games. You never know when they're going to throw up, I just play video games. You never know when they're going to throw it. I just played video games.

Speaker 2: 45:10

Friends are looking like dude, why are you sharing this? But it was like this cry for help and the rooms are so seductive. Another guy, a young captain, probably company commander, said I have terrible nightmares. I have terrible nightmares, so I don't want to sleep, so I watch movies. So I watch movies. And his, so I watch movies. It's not making it better. You know that You're not improving the situation. Why are you telling us? It's like this cry for help but these, these, the, the video games, the movies, the social media they give an illusion of control. So here's the foundational point being sleep deprived is just like being drunk Every way. At 24 hours without sleep, you're impaired judgment, just like blowing 0.10 blood alcohol level above legally drunk. And the link between sleep deprivation and mental illness is huge. 24 hours without sleep and you are mentally ill.

Speaker 2: 46:15

Yeah 36 hours without sleep.

Speaker 2: 46:16

I've been there 36 hours without sleep and you are paranoid, you're irrational, you're aggressive. On the third day without sleep you are psychotic. Any graduate of Army Ranger School will say about hallucinations on the third day without sleep. You are psychotic. Any graduate of Army Ranger School will hear about hallucinations on the third day without sleep. You will flat-seed.

Speaker 2: 46:35

So sleep deprivation is a huge factor in mental illness. You literally are drunk. You're mentally ill when you're sleep deprived and your family has to deal with that and your job has to deal with that. And if somebody showed up to work drunk, you'd kick his ass. If he shows up to work sleep-deprived because he played freaking games all night long, you need his ass kicked. You know and I present to corrections you know a couple hundred. Or cops you know, or I'll present to a military unit. I tell them that. Or cops, you know, or I'll present to a military unit. I tell them that.

Speaker 2: 47:09

You know, if you show up at the morning formation drunk, they kick your ass. You know, show up at the morning formation, sleep deprived because you played games all night long. You didn't ask care. And a lot of them said dude, you're looking at me like a deer in the headlights right now. I just said dude, you're talking straight to me and that's okay, you didn't know, but now you know, you know doing. Well, I'm right, you can't keep doing business this way, you can't keep doing that, and you know I'm right as you love your family, as you love your health, as you love your job. Now, here's the key, now, the huge link between sleep deprivation and suicide.

Speaker 2: 47:43

In the end we lose more corrections and cops to suicide than every other line of duty death put together. And here's the thing Right now it is physically impossible for you to take your life. The drive to self-preservation is too great. You know, if you were on a tall building and I tried to shove you over the building, you'd fight for your life. The drive to self-preservation is so powerful you cannot take your life. But when you're drunk, alcohol inhibits the drive to self-preservation. Suddenly suicide becomes possible. So alcohol is always this key component in suicide. You take all these other problems, you, you add alcohol and suddenly you take a permanent solution to a temporary problem and you take your life.

Speaker 2: 48:35

But sleep deprivation is exactly the same. And you only drunk for a brief window, but you're still deprived for. For it goes on and on and on, and you know, and, and you'll sober up in a couple hours via sleep deprived you just, unless you get some rest, you just get worse and worse. So not only do it. I tell people, do some online research, just do an online research. Sleep deprivation, mental illness, boom, boom, boom, boom. Sleep deprivation, suicide, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Speaker 2: 49:00

Study after study, one of the best studies, says not only is sleep deprivation a key factor in suicide. It's the most remediable factor. But we can't do anything about your relationships, your finances. But we get some sleep right. Stinking now, yeah. And so sleep deprivation is key factor in traffic deaths, another major killer of people.

Speaker 2: 49:23

Sleep deprivation creates chronic pain, sure, and the opiate epidemic. The opiate epidemic. Why opiates? Fentanyl's an opiate. Fentanyl alone kills 40,000 to 80,000 Americans a year. We lose more people Most years. We lose more people to fentanyl in one year than we lost in the entire Vietnam War. And opiates are crazy. Why opiates? Because we got chronic pain. But also, when you're sleep deprived, those opiates have a double whammy. They are satisfying something your body deeply, deeply needs.

Speaker 2: 50:01

The thing to understand is sleep is a biological blind spot. We need four things to survive we need air, we need water. We need food to survive. We need air, we need water, we need food and we need sleep. You will die from lack of sleep faster than you will die from lack of food. You will die from lack of sleep. You need sleep more than you need food, absolutely. Your body knows how to make you get air, water and food. Try going without air or food or water. Your body will take over, but your body doesn't know how to make you get enough sleep. It's just by, like there's nothing tough, there's nothing macho, right Without sleep. Any 10-year-old girl in a slumber party can do it.

Speaker 2: 50:41

The professional thing to do is to manage your sleep and, by the way, sleep deprivation is a key factor in obesity and heart disease and it's a key factor in Alzheimer's. That should scare the hell out of all of us People. I'll sleep when I'm dead. You have a decade of Alzheimer's, you idiot. Alzheimer's and dementia sleep deprivation is a major factor.

Speaker 2: 51:03

Now here's the thing why don't we know about the link between sleep deprivation and Alzheimer's? Why don't we have public service announcements about the link between sleep deprivation and Alzheimer's? Why don't we have public service announcements about the link between sleep deprivation and suicide? Because the TV will never have a commercial that says turn off the TV, right. The video game will never say you played this game for 36 hours, can I shut you down now? The games are designed to make it impossible to turn off. Social media will never say you've been on social media for the last 48 hours or shutting you down. They will never do that. Your time is their money and so all they want to do is steal your sleep. They don't care that they're killing people. The head of Netflix said their competitor is sleep. The corporate policy at Netflix is to steal your sleep. They don't care that they're killing people. So listen, this is a major factor with our kids.

Speaker 2: 51:57

Worldwide, suicides of children have exploded, every nation, every demographic group. Here's parenting 101 for the 21st century. When you send your kid to bed at night, take their cell phone away from them. No laptop, no cell phone, no TV. Take it out of the room and sleep. We should be scared sick. I lost a little brother to suicide. I lost two nephews to suicide. I cannot tell you how harmful that is to a family. It's just no action, no behavior. It's worse than having somebody take their own life, because being murdered is not as harmful to the family as suicide is for them to choose to take their own life. And so a cop came up to me. He said I told the group. I said you know twinators 10, 11, 12-year-old, twin-age girl's suicide rate has tripled in just the last decade. A cop came up. He said I had one of those teenagers.

Speaker 2: 52:54

He said she was a good girl, she was an, a student. She said, dad, it's embarrassing, you don't have to take my cell phone every night. Family policy, good policy, cell phone, a charging board, a bed. You don't have to take my phone every night, you can trust me, I, I'm going to take my phone every night, you can trust me. I said, okay, I trust you, keep your cell phone.

Speaker 2: 53:10

He said a little while later she took her life. He said my little girl took her life and we never knew the hell she was living in until we looked at the text messages on her cell phone. Wow, night after night I've seen such relentless, vicious bullying. He said they were tag-teaming her. They were taking shifts all night long, night after night. He said I immediately understood my little girl's bullied to death what I didn't understand until now. She was sleep-deprived, tormented and bullied to death in front of my eyes and I let it happen. He said I can't ignore that text message in the middle of the night. How can we expect our kids to?

Speaker 2: 53:57

And suicide is a major killer of teenagers. The major killer of teenagers is traffic deaths and sleep deprivation and traffic deaths is huge. Another major major killer of our kids is drug overdoses. Of all three suicide, traffic deaths, drug overdoses the major causal factor is sleep deprivation. So let's talk about sleep hygiene real fast.

Speaker 2: 54:18

Okay, you know I sent my grandson off to college. Now what's the three things most likely to kill my grandson? Suicide, drug overdoses and traffic deaths. It's all there. What's the greatest gift I'd give my grandson? A good night's sleep? He's heard my class, he's heard my stuff. But here's the thing I tell my cops I do a school safety seminar.

Speaker 2: 54:42

I had an East Texas school safety conference. I told them, you know we're going to talk about keeping your school safe from violence. I bet you had, unfortunately you probably had some suicides, had some traffic deaths, had some drug overdoses. Bet you had a problem with mental illness and about obesity. You know you say, well, what can we do about the suicide? Sleep? What can we do about traffic deaths? Sleep, what can we do about the mental illness? Sleep. I said you want to walk out that door and save a kid's life? Educate them about sleep hygiene. So here's what they need to know.

Speaker 2: 55:22

Three things the amount of sleep they need for their age and for adults we need seven hours of sleep minimum. You cannot get by. There's a great chart from military research and that unit that's getting by on four hours of sleep and very quickly they're destroyed. Human beings after 20 days. The ones with five hours of sleep are right behind and the ones with six hours of sleep are not. It isn't until you get seven hours of sleep every night that you can sustain yourself, and all these military units nobody's. Oh, I got by on four hours of sleep and 20 days later I'm just fine. Nobody, nobody, nobody was able to get by on four hours of sleep and 20 days later be just fine. So we've got to get a minimum of seven hours of sleep. As adults, I shoot for nine. That's kind of my personal goal. If I get less than that, I try to make up for it a little bit. Anything beyond nine or ten starts to become a little counterproductive. If you catch up on sleep, it's not so bad, but on a steady basis. 9 is really the most that we should shoot for, but the amount of sleep that they need for kids, depending on the age, they need more than that.

Speaker 2: 56:32

Number two cut off caffeine shortly after lunch. We're in the middle of a caffeine epidemic. We've got a global epidemic of sleep deprivation and a global epidemic of caffeine abuse. We have quantity and quality of caffeine like there's never been before. You could pound down cup after cup of hot, you know strong black coffee and not have the same amount of caffeine. You get some of these energy drinks, oh, absolutely. Here's the thing. The half-life of caffeine in your body is five hours. Now, sleep is precious. Sleep is so precious. Guard your sleep, protect your sleep. And caffeine is the enemy of good sleep. So the caffeine you took at 5 pm is still at half strength when you go to bed at 10 pm and it's making you have bad quality sleep. That causes chronic pain and that's where the Alzheimer's and dementia comes from. So, cut off caffeine. Teach the kids shortly after lunch shut down caffeine. You really need to do it. If you need to stay awake, smack yourself, do anything, but please, during that block of time about seven hours before you go into bed, just shut it down. No caffeine.

Speaker 2: 57:47

And then here's the key one sleep in the dark. We're designed to sleep in total darkness, our species throughout history, for untold hundreds of thousands of years. It got dark. It got dark, there was no light, and that's why the body doesn't have to make us sleep. It happened. Naturally it got dark. It had nothing to do with a little sex, a little talk, and you roll over and you went to sleep. And then we admitted the electric light bulb and the television and the video came. So here's the key Teach the kids to sleep in the dark.

Speaker 2: 58:19

And one of the best tools anybody out there, anybody listening is this sleep mask. This particular mask is Amazon's number one bestseller. Last I looked, I'm like 85,000 five-star reviews for a stinking mask. Wow. And if you do just one thing from this podcast, one life-saving thing, you may not get one more minute of sleep. But you and I know that no matter how bad your curtains are, if you're working night shift, you're going to sleep during the day. But if you're, how good your blackout curtains are, if you can tell it's daylight outside, that's way too much light.

Speaker 2: 58:57

I'm a huge science geek and a major study in the sleep lab. Right. Totally dark room, sleep lab. Bathroom light is on and the door is shut. The light coming under the crack of the bathroom door is enough light to stop your body from producing the melatonin that you need Now. Melatonin is the hormone that makes us sleep. Melatonin is created in total darkness, and so make the room as dark as you can and combine it with a sleep mask. You may not get one more minute of sleep. You get quality sleep. It'll rock your world. It's just the easiest possible life hack. You walk out that door and change your world and change your life. To sleep in the dark and combine it with a sleep mask and it'll rock your world.

Speaker 2: 59:39

So my grandson goes off to college. I gave him three different kinds of sleep masks. I said find the one you like and use it. I called my grandson, I called hey, buddy, how's college going? Doing great, grandpa, are you getting enough sleep? Critical question yes, sir, are you using your sleep mask? Yes, sir, as a matter of fact, it got kind of grody. I went online and ordered another one and boom, that's how I sell success, you know. So the kid wrapped up two years of college, enlisted, is now deployed, doing great things. Congratulations, yeah, thanks. Those college years, they're dangerous. We're losing kids, we're losing people.

Speaker 2: 1:00:20

For all you corrections, people out there again. If you're sleep-deprived, don't cop a pity party here, but if you're sleep-deprived and the best stuff comes down, you're stacking the deck against yourself. Teach yourself of the long game. We need four-quarter players. We need seasoned players. Your whole family. Nurture an environment of sleep. Create an environment where we track our sleep there's great value in the fitness trackers where we track our sleep A nurture environment where we track our sleep and we monitor our sleep. There's a big movement now, a social movement on sleep maxing, finding all the different ways to get better quality sleep and maximizing your sleep, and it starts with a fitness tracker and all of your corrections. People out there doing this difficult, difficult job. If you're sleep deprived, don't cop a pity party. We can handle anything, but we stack the deck against ourselves and this is one place where we can make a huge difference right now to turn the tide.

Speaker 1: 1:01:23

That's good advice. And if you don't think about yourself, think about the staff you're working with. You know, if you're not 100%, that's who you're there to protect. That day.

Speaker 2: 1:01:34

Yeah, what would you think of the staff guy who shows up to work drunk?

Speaker 1: 1:01:37

That's you, absolutely that's you.

Speaker 2: 1:01:39

Absolutely. That's you. What a great point. Do it for your comrades, do it for the men and women who count on you every day. Sure, do it for your family, who count on you coming home healthy and stable at the end of the day. So these are things that we can walk out the door and do right now to change our life and to rock our world and to move ourselves towards a better world and better place.

Speaker 1: 1:02:03

That is so on point, you know, for today's correctional officer Recruitment, retention overtime. You know. That is so on point for what a lot of them are facing right now.

Speaker 2: 1:02:15

Maybe so, yeah, we've got hard times in front of us, like you said. Recruiting is down, retention is down, although we're kind of turning the tide in recent months. You know, I'll give you some good news. I think all of our sheepdogs should appreciate this. Okay, 2021 was the all-time record number of cops murdered in the line of duty. Yeah, 2023 was the all-time record number of cops shot in the line of duty. 2023 was the all-time record number of cops shot in the line of duty. But starting in 25, you know, and it's about somebody who backs the blue at the highest level, regardless of your politics, just recognize that there's been this major shift in attitude and this is all from the Officer Down Memorial website. But of the first five months of 2025, two months tied. One was a three-way tie and one was like a four-way tie, but two months tied the least number of cops murdered in the land of duty and we're including corrections in that and two months set a new record low number murdered in the line of duty. That's great. We've seen recruiting has exploded. The FBI, the Border Patrol, has seen an explosion of recruiting. Albuquerque, new Mexico, was under consent decree. The consent decree was lifted and they had a surge of recruiting like they'd never seen before.

Speaker 2: 1:03:46

I just have hope. These have been hard years. These have been hard times when our sheepdogs were under attack and the wolf was empowered. They were taught that the criminal is the good guy and the cop was the bad guy, and this is one of the most harmful possible narratives. Well, we've come out of those dark days and there's hope for the future and there's hope for our nation. But in the meanwhile, we need our sheepdogs to just protect the flock and believe in who they are. Remember sometimes, the greatest love is not to sacrifice your life, but to live a life of sacrifice, to do that dirty, dangerous job, because you know, if nobody did it, our civilization would be doomed. True.

Speaker 1: 1:04:30

Absolutely true. Thank you so much, colonel.

Speaker 2: 1:04:34

Thank you for coming on here, and let me tell you and all your corrections out there. They're coming on here and let me tell you and all your corrections out there. Thank you for being there doing that job for us every day. Like you said, the sheep don't care what the sheepdog is doing.

Speaker 1: 1:04:47

They're not even remotely interested.

Speaker 2: 1:04:53

The sheepdog is doing the job out there and it's a necessary, essential job and thank you and all the magnificent men and women who listen to this podcast for going out there and doing that job for us every day.

Speaker 1: 1:05:00

I appreciate that. I will put in the show notes. If anybody wants information on how to contact Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman or his books, I'll have all that stuff in there. If I can find that study, I would love. To that sleep study I'd love to add that link also.

Speaker 2: 1:05:14

I'll send you a copy of it right now.

Speaker 1: 1:05:16

Perfect. Thank you so much. You have a great day. God bless you.

Speaker 2: 1:05:20

All right, stay safe.

Speaker 1: 1:05:22

Hey, before we go, I'd like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors. Omni Real-Time Locating System is a company I've been working closely with for years. I'm proud to be a part of this innovative team that's developed the best real-time locating system on the market today for your jail or prison locating system on the market today for your jail or prison.

Speaker 1: 1:05:43

Omni's PREA compliant real-time monitoring technology is the very best way to track and record your inmates' locations, their movements, their interactions, throughout every square inch of your correctional facility. Imagine getting an alarm the second an escape happens, or an alert that lets you know when an inmate's heart rate drops below a set level. To learn more about Omni, go to wwwomnirtlscom. That's omnirtlscom or you can click on today's show notes to get in the information guide. Omni Real-Time Locating System is a powerful tool specifically designed for the modern correctional professional. If you haven't done so, please take a moment to like my podcast or, better yet, hit the subscribe button so that you'll be notified when the next episode comes out. Thanks for listening and let's be safe out there.