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The Prison Officer Podcast
The Prison Officer Podcast is a place where prison officers and correctional staff share their experiences, discuss leadership, cope with stress, and learn survival strategies for one of the toughest careers out there. Hosted by Michael Cantrell, this podcast delves into the lives, dreams, and challenges faced by those who work inside the walls of our nation’s prisons. It features interviews, insights, and discussions related to the unique and demanding world of corrections. Whether it’s overcoming difficult leaders, understanding rehabilitation, or addressing misconceptions about incarcerated populations, the Prison Officer Podcast provides valuable perspectives from professionals in the field.
The Prison Officer Podcast
105: Keeping Your Cell Extraction from Going Viral on YouTube - Interview w/Tim Fasnacht
The shocking disparity between training requirements—four weeks to become a correctional officer versus sixteen weeks to become a hairdresser in Washington State—highlights a systemic problem in how we prepare staff to handle some of society's most challenging individuals. Fosnott describes his earliest experiences, including being thrown into supervising inmates during a power outage with zero training, and how these moments shaped his understanding of corrections as a profession requiring specialized skills and knowledge.
As founder of ARC Tactical (Automatic Response Concepts) and director of training with Safe Restraints Inc., Fasnacht has developed innovative approaches to cell extractions, transport procedures, and restraint techniques that prioritize safety for both officers and inmates. His company's training programs have reached correctional facilities across America and internationally, including the United Arab Emirates and Australia, demonstrating the universal need for better tactical preparation in correctional settings.
Whether you're a correctional professional looking to enhance your skills, an administrator seeking to improve your department's safety record, or simply interested in understanding the complex world behind the walls, this episode offers valuable insights into the specialized knowledge required to work effectively in one of society's most demanding environments.
Check out arctac.net to learn more about upcoming training opportunities and resources for correctional professionals.
Contact Tim @ ARC Tactical: tim@arctac.net
Contact Ian @ Chisel & Stone: Ian@chiselandstone.net
Check Out Michael Cantrell new book: POWER SKILLS for Corrections - You can pre-order here https://amzn.to/4iG2FtX
PepperBallFrom crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.
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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
I came up with a live stream thing scared me for a minute. We're not live, okay. Well, welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell and today you're going to have to remind me again how do I say it Fosnott.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Tim.
Speaker 1:Fosnott. Well hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell and today I've got Tim Fosnott. Well hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell and today I've got Tim Fosnott on here.
Speaker 1:For those of you that have been around corrections for a while correctional training you know of Tim as the owner of Arc Tactical. He's a corrections leader with nearly 20 years of experience in law enforcement, currently assigned as the director of our tactical and the director of training with safe restraints. He's retired as a corrections academy commander with an extensive background in training program management and advanced tactics. Instructor certificates in several disciplines, such as firearms instructor master, defensive tactics instructor, taser instructor, blue courage instructor master, rap, safe restraint instructor and, of course, a cert instructor. His past assignments include corrections sergeant, field training officer, deletion, detention programs to my fault, detention programs coordinator, adjunct instructor for the Criminal Justice Training Commission and a reserve police officer. He brings a unique and thorough perspective when analyzing the complex situations correctional facilities and staff face every day. Welcome to the Prison Officer Podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much Dan.
Speaker 2:It's good to be on. I'm a fan too, so it's kind of cool to be on here. Thank you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that. Um, it's really grown and, uh, I get to meet such interesting people and you're my next one. I've been, you know, I've I've seen your classes come up, I've, uh, you know, paid attention to what you're doing there and what you post on linkedin. You've got some real insight, especially, I'm sure, with the number of people you train and you train all over the world. We'll talk about that. But where I want to start is where I always start on this podcast when I interview people. I want to know how you got into corrections, how you got into law enforcement work. So how did that come about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a lot of people out there that got into corrections similar to me. Right, my story isn't super special. I was, you know, growing up in the 80s and 90s. Early 2000s is when I really started to want to get into law enforcement. I come from a law enforcement family. My father was a Seattle police officer here in Washington State that's where I'm based out of. My mother was the first female cadet in Seattle Police Department support services area. She was a dispatcher and then worked for another agency as well. So that came from that lineage there and that's really where my heart was. So that came from that lineage there and that's really where my heart was. But during that time in law enforcement you would try to test out for a law enforcement job and there'd be like two positions and 400 applicants. It just wasn't practical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've talked about that on here. People these days do not realize, do they?
Speaker 2:No, no, there used to be a line out the door of people just dying to do the job that we can't stand anymore. But that was the culture and people were excited to serve Not to say that they aren't still. We have some really amazing people out there, um, walking the streets and walking the floor, but at the time it was, it was challenging and and I needed a job. You know, it's one of those things where you kind of fell into it. I wanted to do something in the vein of law enforcement. I'd become a uh uh reserve police officer. I had done some time in support services for a local police agency as well, and I was waiting for my time to hit the road and do that. A corrections position opened up. People thought I'd be good for it, and so I applied and got it Excellent. I just kind of fell in love with the profession after that.
Speaker 1:What was that position?
Speaker 2:It was first-line corrections officer, it was brand-new recruit, you're going to the academy type situation, sure, sure, okay, it was kind of an interesting thing and really it kind of drove the rest of my career. Because what I found and I'm sure I'm not the only one but my corrections agency and we have this a lot in Washington it is rare around the country, but my corrections agency was attached to a police department, so it wasn't a County jail, it was attached to a police department. And because of that I'll tell you there's a lot of my law enforcement friends, my road buddies, that when I told them that I was going to get into corrections, they're like do not do that, nobody wants to do that, that's a bad job. And I was like well, what are you talking about? I'm super excited to be joining this. And they were very discouraging. I was like man, that's too bad. And I couldn't tell why.
Speaker 2:Once I got into the game, because I loved it, I just fell in love with the job and I'm really glad that I stuck it out. So I'm sure Absolutely so.
Speaker 1:tell me about when you, of course, you grew up in law enforcement, so you'd heard about jails, you'd heard about that stuff, but nobody really knows until they walk in. What was that like?
Speaker 2:is hey look, you're going to get food for the inmates and drop it off, or you're going to be the one to take evidence from here to there for the police department side, taking care of the fleet of patrol vehicles, that type of thing, and so I was always adjacent to it. But I'll tell you the very first time that I was involved in corrections and this is a horrible way to start for the record, but we had a power outage in the middle of summer at our jail and I was in the process of getting hired. I was still working for this agency, but I was in the process of getting hired for this corrections officer role and they're like look, we can't just keep these guys in these cells like that. They're going to sweat it out and there's going to be a riot. So what we're going to do is we're going to open up all of the doors and then we need people to stay by those doors and we're out of people. So you're it.
Speaker 2:So here I am, I'm 21. I don't know nothing about nothing. I've never talked to inmates like inmates before and they throw me in front of this wide, open door full of 14 dudes that aren't super happy to see me, and so that was my first experience. But what I found really quickly was like you know, if you treat them with respect, they'll treat you with respect, and that's where that line is. I'm like okay, I can, I get this. I understand this now.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, just treat them like people and a lot of times you'll get that reaction back They'll act like people, absolutely. There's always the violence, there's always those inmates, but most of the time, 90% of the time, we can handle it through that type of interaction. Sure.
Speaker 2:For sure I was. John Oliver has a show I think it's called tonight with john oliver or something like that. But he was talking about prison health care and one of the jokes that he said was there's a stat out there that 100 of the inmates in jails are people and I was like, yeah, that's, that's that really true.
Speaker 1:That's good. I like that. Yeah, you're dealing with people. You're working with people, absolutely so, yeah, that had to have been kind of crazy. What training had you had in corrections? Up to that, nothing. You hadn't been to the academy yet no, no.
Speaker 2:And what was interesting at the time, here in Washington State we had a four-week academy and it was like here's all the things for corrections, good luck. There was a lot of problem-based learning styles. There was a lot of how would you handle this type of situation, heavy focus on defensive tactics, and that's one of the areas where I fell in love with defensive tactics stuff. But I hadn't gone through any of that. I was a martial arts nerd right for most most 80s 90s kids watching the ninja turtles. So we were like, yeah, we can do this right. So, um, I, I did some martial arts, some wrestling, so I I knew how to to be physical and handle myself, but I didn't have, I didn't know when I should be doing those things. You know, I, I, if you were, if an incident had broken off during that time, I would have been toast number one physically. But then later in the court of law I would have no idea what to be doing or if I did what was right any of that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I want to get into this some more. I want to have this discussion with you because you do a lot of training, but I'll just touch on it here. Four weeks, that's just, and that's common across America. You see it, I see it all the time. You know, to be a wildlife officer, a warden in Texas takes 30 weeks. You know most police officers. They get 12 weeks before they ever show up to their department.
Speaker 2:I'll do you one better here in Washington State and we did the research because we were actually part of the team that got it legislated to extend it. So it's now a lot longer, but at the time we were doing research, it takes 16 weeks to become a hairdresser in Washington State, right, and four weeks to be among some of the most violent, most vulnerable people in our communities. Sure, you know so, my my friend and co-teacher, ian Edwards. He's out of San Antonio, texas. He was a commander at the time and we worked through some processes and got it legislated to extend it from four weeks to 10 weeks. But, um, and we had the honor of developing that program and now we have 10 weeks. What do we do with it? How do we maximize it? So that was a lot of fun, but I'm telling you, at the time we we had nothing. I mean, it was four weeks just isn't enough.
Speaker 1:So no, and I see people get thrown in. I talked to. It was a very small county in Iowa and he had given one of his newest officers which he doesn't get a team, you know, a class. He gets one or two. He'd given them three days and then they went to work in the block. And you know what I'd love to see, and maybe you know where to find this at, or if somebody out there does, I'd love it to email it to me. What is more likely? Who is more likely to have a use of force early in their career, or forces a correctional officer or law enforcement officer? You know, I'd love to see the stats.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I, I'm sure they're out there. I think, anecdotally, what I've experienced in my career, but also, you know, we have access to hundreds and hundreds of officers doing the work through our training what we find is, most of the time, our ceos are fighting with people more than our law enforcement officers. Right, and that's for a couple reasons, right? Reason number one when a law enforcement officer arrests somebody, they bring him to us and typically the fight's not out of them, right? Yep, so we have to handle almost 100% of the people that the officers bring in. Okay, they have an opportunity to deal with the public that you know have a lost kitty or something like that.
Speaker 2:Right, sure, for us there's no kitties in jail. 100% of them have been arrested for something. Nope, probably not in the best mental state, because nobody likes their freedom taken away. But that's just people coming in. We're also dealing with all the people that are already in there, you know. So we're, we're doubling up on that. So, anecdotally, I I want to say that we are probably more likely to go hands-on, less likely to draw guns or any of those things, um, on the regular. But when it comes to unarmed or less lethal tools, those types of of altercations we got to beat, I'm sure of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I started off at a very violent place. So I mean, in the door I shattered for a couple of days and then, you know, somebody had to work someplace else and you had to block yourself, right, and so we went right at it. Yeah, that's. I want to get deeper into that. I want to learn more about that because I don't think. Just, I was on Facebook the other day and, uh, they were talking about was it okay to have 18 year olds as correctional officers, or should they be 21, or should they be 28? And one of the answers was you know well, an 18 year old could serve their country. They can grab a rifle and go to war. And I said, yeah, but they get a whole lot more training to do that.
Speaker 2:You know nothing against the military.
Speaker 1:But I'm just saying they get a, you get to go through basics. I'd love to put correctional officers through a level of training that prepared them.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you that you know my angle on that because you're right, there's a lot of 18-year-olds out there that are trying to get experience almost similar to me. I'll tell you, if they had been hiring at 18, I would have been a CEO then.
Speaker 1:They are across the country.
Speaker 2:now I know, I know I would not have been prepared for it, and not just for the physical command, presence control type situation. The biggest issue that I see is in minute inmate manipulation. Yeah, because as an 18 year old kid I don't know nothing. Right, I think that I know some stuff, but the games that inmates play are, and just to get a ibuprofen, I mean it's ridiculous and you can't. I'll tell you, when I started at 21, I wasn't prepared for those things. I had to learn those the hard way, with excellent mentors at my facility, right. But if you don't have that, that's why we're going to have a huge shift of criminal activity from corrections officers, because they're kind of put down a path that they're not prepared for. And it's a challenging, not just physically but, you know, emotionally, mental health wise, it's a challenge.
Speaker 1:Sure, I think it's the manipulation that jaded me the most.
Speaker 1:I wasn't ready. I hadn't been around people who manipulated you like that and I went from being a fairly trusting person to trusting no one and it took a long time to get over that. You have to get some maturity and some experience to get over that. But that was probably the hardest thing on me was the manipulation, the fights Hell, I'd been in fights my entire life. That wasn't right. That wasn't that big a deal. But I'd never had people try to deceive me at that level.
Speaker 2:so yeah, everybody's trying to run a game on you, you know, um, and if they're not, you're like, yeah, you are right, like there's a little. There's a little bit of that and, oddly enough, this is one of the things that was hardest to transfer into the business world, right? So when I left in 2021, I was working with a lot of agencies and I was working with people that were outside of law enforcement, doing self-defense classes, and I still felt like, okay, I'm going to work. Now People are going to try to run a game on me and I, I I'll be honest, I still feel that way sometimes. I'm still highly suspicious of people, you know, but, um, it's getting better, uh, but that that environment is just prone for that, oh, absolutely you.
Speaker 1:You mentioned something. You mentioned it a couple of times. I know I'm getting off the mark. I'll get back to your career here in a minute, but a couple of things have just stirred me. And you keep talking about defensive tactics and I think a lot of what. The reason I'm thinking about this is because of what I've, in some curriculum I've been developing lately Control techniques. We do a lot with defensive tactics. I did when I went in, you know, and in the Bureau of Prisons. I wasn't real excited. Most of theirs was reverse crab crawls, so that you keep from getting stabbed. I didn't think that was real good. But the Missouri Department of Corrections we did quite a bit with defensive tactics but control techniques. And when you go on youtube right now and look at the videos over and over and over again, I see officers without good control techniques, without knowing how to use an arm bar, just a basic arm bar, to get control and get cuffs on somebody. Um, how are we doing better with that these days? Is that something you guys are um?
Speaker 2:yeah, out there. You know that's such a great question because, um, I think there's been a focus and, listen, I'm, I'm a jujitsu guy, I like, I like those grappling arts, um, and there's a lot of value and there's a lot of transfer to law enforcement. For sure, I'll never say there's not. When it comes to corrections, though, I think we find ourselves in positions where we can stop the fight before the fight, simply by gaining control with some of those techniques, right. If it goes south from there, yeah, I'm going to turn my jujitsu on, I'm going to wrap you up and you're not going to know what's happening, right. But before that, if I can get a hold of an, an arm, if I can get a grip or some type of hold, that just lets them know, hey, look, we're, we're serious here, right? No need to get crazy. Those things, um, sometimes get overlooked because they're not flashy. You know, it's nothing, it's nothing cool, it's, it's not the ninja turtles, right, it's, uh, it's, you know, very simple stuff, um. So, to answer your question, we, we absolutely do handle that.
Speaker 2:One of the things in corrections that I've found is that, though, jujitsu techniques 100 help, because that's kind of the bench right now in defensive tactics world and law enforcement and corrections. It's focusing on jujitsu and, again, I train. I love that sport, but it's a sport, right? There are rules to it, just like the UFC. There are rules to that. There's no rules on the inmate side of the house. When we get into an altercation, they have a say in that. So, when it comes to the correction side, what we try to focus on is a transition between all of those different techniques or concepts. Really, we focus what we call as principle based systems. Right, why does something work? So if I'm fighting with somebody, I'm probably not going to try to put them in a gooseneck or an armbar at that point, right, because we're using the wrong tool for the wrong situation. So I might kick that up a bit. The other thing that we found is there is a lack of focus on team tactics, and there's plenty of videos out there I know because I make fun of them when I teach my classes but there's an officer who will get some type of limb control and then their partner will come in and then they'll both try to do a move opposite of each other and then rip the guy in half, right, like there's no concept of team tactics, and so early on in our game, we developed a very comprehensive program to work with each other instead of against each other, to work with each other instead of against each other.
Speaker 2:And then I guess the third point I'll say on defensive tactics and corrections is that I'm not going to say all the time, but I would say, in law enforcement on the road, your main goal is one officer, two officers, against one offender. Right, there's typically we have one bad guy, we're going to arrest that bad guy and that's it In our jails. Yeah, we have some officers that are nearby, but we're typically moving 20, 30. Sometimes there's a county here in Washington state that you have one officer in a pod with 75 inmates, right. So how do you do that effectively? What are the techniques that you can use? Because, I'll tell you, if you try to get on the ground with somebody and we can't put them to sleep anymore, right, but if we try to get them down on the ground, you're gonna get your head stomped in, and and so that's not gonna work. Yeah, so we have a lot of um again, principle-based systems. We call them systems because they have to interlock and work with in flow and all that. We have a lot of, again, principle-based systems. We call them systems because they have to interlock and work in flow and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:But how do I protect myself? How do I protect my partner? How do we work together? How do I exfil out of the cell, get more people, get more tools, more resources and strategize? So that's a long-winded answer to your question. No, basic, basic control. It's still there, not flashy, it's not highlighted. Uh, and I think, as instructors, that's one of the reasons why I think what we're doing is really important in the industry. You're an instructor at your agency and you're going to show an armbar for the 10,000th time. You're going to get bored and people aren't going to want to hear that from you. So by being able to come in from the outside and say, no, this is valid, this is why it's valid. It tends to hold a little bit more weight in that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and it's not only the safety effect. Just like you and I watching these videos, there's the public watching these videos and when they see officers who are able to get ahold of an inmate and take control, that looks so much better from a liability standpoint. When five of us are wrestling a guy on the ground and somebody's throwing a haymaker over the top, you know that's where it goes on the nightly news for sure. Some of this bad rap in the, in the corrections industry well you're never gonna see.
Speaker 2:It's very rare that you see a use of force incident. That is pretty, that makes the news. That's true. You just don't see it because there's no story there. Right, everybody did what we were supposed to do and it worked out and that's it right. But one of the things that my friend Ian Edwards again, he's from Chisel and Stone Training. He does a lot of de-escalation stuff. He's awesome, so shameless plug there. A lot of de-escalation stuff. He's awesome, so shameless plug there. But he points out that the public expects excellence but we train to the level of competence, right, and that is a huge discrepancy on human performance. That's just not how people work, right, absolutely. So it's always a challenge on that so let me get back.
Speaker 2:So you're a correctional officer, you're learning how to be a correctional officer, um, and you get the opportunity to promote yeah, well, you know, what was interesting about our agency is it was it has recently grown, um, but at the time when I first started it was a cohort of officers and then one jail commander. There was no intermediate, there was no sergeants or no corporals or no lieutenants, there was no promoting, and so during that period of time I'm somebody that gets bored easily, it's just my personality. I got to be doing something and so I started leaning into different aspects of the career and kind of leaning on my experience. When I first started feeling completely under-trained, even with the four weeks of academy training and my FTO after that, I just felt like, well, what happens if we have this situation? And even my mentors were like, well, we go in and thump them a lot and hope for the best right, like there was no real answer, real protocol for that.
Speaker 2:Sure, and at the time Washington State had a really robust defensive tactics instructor program that I think is probably 800 hours total, through different disciplines like level one, level two, uh, weapon retention, ground survival, pepper spray, like they covered everything and it all led to essentially what was a college course in motor learning science. Uh, the guy that wrote that course is on or was on the board of force science, um, so he knew what he was talking about. It turns out, um, but we got. We got a crash course in that um, we had seminars on use of force law, uh, continuously got updated on that. So because his vision was, when you become a master defensive tactics instructor, you got to know all the things and not just how to do the things, when to do them, expected outcomes, you know how to write about it, all of that stuff. And so I was like that's what I want to do with my career. I want to learn. I want, when somebody has the questions that I have, I want them to come to career. I want to learn. I want, when somebody has the questions that I have, I want them to come to me and I can give them the answer and help them out. Like that was my goal.
Speaker 2:And so I leaned into that and I started training. So about a year and a half in I started that process. Nobody from the police department side wanted to do it, which was interesting. So I got to train both our corrections guys and our patrol guys. And you know that was an interesting thing because at the time there was very much a separation or an isolation between the two. You know, the corrections was the necessary evil, like, yeah, we know you guys are there, but we're cops right, we have a show named after us, right. So, um, but having somebody from the correction side of the house go into the patrol side of the house and train those guys, they're like, oh well, you guys can handle your stuff. I'm like, yeah, I'm not unique. It turns out they're all of us can.
Speaker 2:Um, so I leaned into that, got my master defensive tactics instructor certification, um, and then I was like, well, what else is there? Uh? So I started doing, uh, taser stuff and less lethal um. Uh, started working with some agent. We didn't have a dedicated cert team at my agency, so I started working with people that did and started learning about that, took some courses on that, became a field training officer. I just really liked the idea of training and helping improve others, because if I couldn't promote up which you know wasn't necessarily something that I wanted that leadership piece didn't really speak to me at the time, but there wasn't an opportunity anyway, so I didn't even consider it. So with FTO, if you have an FTO program at your agency, you know that you're truly considered their first-line supervisor that recruits first-line supervisor.
Speaker 1:So were you coming from corrections and doing the fto on the law enforcement side, the police no, mainly the interaction with law enforcement is with combatives and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:um, but that was kind of, that was kind of the. The thing is just leaning into training. Um, I got told, no, a lot, uh, which was kind of interesting, you know. I hey, I want to try this now and they're like, no, we're gonna bring out somebody else to it.
Speaker 2:One of the major things that we found was, um, you know, we, because we were a smaller agency, we did all of the things, meaning I could show up to work and I'm not stuck at booking or release or in a pod. I could show up, book a guy in, throw my gun on, do a transport back, do a cell extraction, like we could do those things. But we always we were all certified to carry a firearm. There were no corrections instructors for firearms at our agency and my agency was very old school where they're like, yeah, corrections officers can't be firearms instructors, clearly, because they're corrections officers. That doesn't work.
Speaker 2:And around that time I started working with our local academy here and they liked what I was doing, teaching our defensive tactics stuff, and they said, hey, look, we'll pay you to go become a firearms instructor and we'll pay for all the course.
Speaker 2:So you just got to get the time off at your agency. And it was one of those press it moments where I talked that back to my agency and they're like, well, you can't do that. I said, well, I'm going to be on vacation and you don't get to tell me where I can and can't go on vacation, so I'm going to come back with a certificate. If you want me to work for you then then I'd be happy to do that. And so that's what I did. And I came back and, sure enough, about a weekend, they're like we really want you to train the corrections officers how to shoot guns now. So it was one of those things. But that's kind of how I didn't promote up right away. I leaned into training. That's been a passion of mine ever since and that's kind of why we do what we're doing now.
Speaker 1:So what you mentioned. There's something I talked to rookies about quite a bit, and that is sometimes you have to invest in yourself If you're going to sit around and wait, you know, for somebody, for the agency to invest in you. There's only a certain amount of slots. You know, I went out and did same as you. I paid for my own courses, did it on vacation. Once a year I went somewhere and learned something new, and what that does over the course of a career is you become very valuable to that agency. Yeah, because you're the one bringing the new ideas, you're the one bringing the new skills, you're the one up on what's changing. Yeah, so I recommend that for everyone.
Speaker 1:You're the one up on what's changing, so I recommend that for everyone.
Speaker 2:I do and I think I've thought about this a lot and there's kind of a rift in some of our newer officers. And it's a generational thing, right? Because if you think about it, you have a generation of officers that watched their parents or people go to work every day, invest in themselves so that they can bring more value to their agency and have almost be a conduit for an outside entity. And then September 11th happened, and now it's wow, all these people were showing up to work that day to give their lives to that organization, and they're not here anymore. So maybe we need to shift where we put our energy, and, though I understand that for sure, I think bringing value to your profession because that's what it is it's not a job, it is a profession.
Speaker 2:Not everybody can do this. A job is something anybody can do. Corrections is a profession, and if you're going to bring value to that profession, you need to be a student of the game. Whether it's for you, for your agency, for your partners, for your family, you need to put that energy in. So I'm a huge believer that, though, yeah, your agency might take advantage of you, they might not support you and then, after they don't support you, they might still try to take advantage of you. Right, you do it for you and for your partners, not for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And I think we are in an era, you see it, with the political and social climate right now, of this distrust, so everybody has this distrust above them. But what kind of changed. My whole viewpoint of my point in the profession was when I became a trainer and then it became personal. And you know, I'm not taking care of the agency, I'm taking care of that person and that person, I'm making them better, and that was a changing point in my career, absolutely. And that was a changing point in my career Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I was very lucky enough to have some immediate positive reinforcement from my training. I was teaching a class at our academy. The class graduated, we ended up booking a lot of inmates from other agencies. So I didn't always see and I should probably go back. Our academy is the way it's set up here in Washington state is that every CEO, every police officer goes to one central location. They have different classes but they're one central location. So I could be going into a class of police officers and train five, six, seven different agencies in a class of 30.
Speaker 2:The benefit of that is later on in life, when that officer went back to their agency arrested, some guy brought him to me. We had a relationship already built in and I want to say, right on FTO, this kid was fresh, you know, with his field training officer came in, booked a guy in and thanked me because one of the things that I told him or showed him worked and I was like, oh, I like the way this feels I'm going to do this a lot Right. So I had that positive reinforcement as a trainer. But that feeling is something. If it ever happens to you, you know that that's what you're supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, so how you stayed there for how long?
Speaker 2:yeah, I was there until oh, let's see 2020, and anybody that worked in the jails in 2020 realized a couple of things happened. There's this thing called COVID. It wasn't awesome. That time period was very challenging. In our facility. We got rid of as many inmates as we possibly could.
Speaker 2:Just oddly enough, as COVID was happening, some stuff happened in Minneapolis in 2020. Enough, as COVID was happening, some stuff happened in Minneapolis in 2020 where caused culturally officers not to want to go arrest people anymore. Some stuff happened in 2020 here in Washington, where Seattle got taken over. They gave up a precinct. There were protests on I-5. We would transport inmates through that protest area. That was our route. We had to go through the main thoroughfare on Interstate 5. And you didn't know they could be blocking the freeway. You didn't know what you're going to encounter, and so we limited those transports.
Speaker 2:It was just a really gnarly place to be and there wasn't a lot of activity. You know, when I first started, we'd be rocking and rolling from the time we put our first foot in that jail to when we left, right In 2020, I'd come in, there'd be no one waiting to be booked, wasn't a lot of activity going on. Nothing was happening, and that was a 12-hour shift, sure, and I, I mentioned that I need to be doing something. Uh, I I get bored, easy right. So during that time I was like, well, maybe we can focus our efforts on training. Well, because of covid, we couldn't be near each other, we couldn't be really doing anything effective, we'd get in trouble for that. And so it became very apparent that, being on night shift as a supervisor, I wasn't being effective. It was affecting my mental health. I wasn't being a good leader.
Speaker 2:There was ways that I needed to change to feel my purpose again, and that's when a spot opened up at our academy to be a full-time TAC officer. Tac is Training, administration and Coach, and our goal with those is to have one or two or maybe even three TAC officers facilitating training. So when that came out, I applied. My agency wasn't happy about it, um, but they realized we're not really doing anything anyway. Uh, so they, they sent me down there and I did that for about two months and, uh, at the time, the corrections side, corrections side their commander left for another position and they're like Tim, you're the guy. So I got promoted to that level there and ran that for about a year.
Speaker 2:At the same time, I had been developing my business, and that's a whole different track because, like I said, I always have to be doing something. I started my business in 2012. So it's been going all through my corrections career. But any entrepreneurs out there realize, hey, there's a point where you can keep your safe full-time job and do that, or you can be risky and lean into the thing that you're passionate about. And I had the opportunity, with safe restraints, um, to work with them on a contract basis to help supplement some income, and it was the time time to go. So that's when I turned in my papers and leaned into our tactical.
Speaker 1:So uh, tell me a little bit about safe restraints. I know what it is. Not everybody does. I worked at a mental health institution. A lot of those things we utilized, yeah, so tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:If you don't know what the RAP is, it's built by a company called Safe Restraints Inc. The RAP is I don't want to say a restraint chair replacement, because it's a completely different type of tool, but it's essentially a human burrito that is designed to keep somebody safe. You know, we came to the RAP at my agency at a similar way that most people do. Hey, we have a restraint chair, we have a need. This person's very highly combative. If we put them in a cell just free to roam around, they're probably going to hurt themselves. So we got to do something more restrictive to control this person With our chair. It was one of those ones that sat up a little bit. We'd fight somebody down on the ground because we're in a fight. We'd get them cuffed up and then, because we were super smart, we'd stand them back up again. After gaining all that ground, we just gave it right back and then we'd have to fight more to sit them in the chair right, and then we'd have to lean them forward to take their hands out from behind their back and cuff them in. The little arm stirrups there, and so, after doing that hundreds and hundreds of times, one night we did this with a female and I'll tell you some of the knockdown drag out fights that I've ever been in with scrappy, scrawny little females. But my sergeant at the time got kicked and I was like, well, why did this happen? I'm the DT guy, how could this have possibly happened? Why did this happen? I'm the DT guy, how could this have possibly happened? And the conclusion that I came to was in order to put somebody in that chair, you kind of have to take a bad tactical position. You kind of have to be right in front of that person, especially to do the legs right. And I started doing some research to see what else was out there, and we made contact with the RAP.
Speaker 2:And the RAP's main goal was hey look, how do we keep people safe, not just our officers, but the people in communities, right, the people that are having a bad day, and one of our taglines is you know, don't let a bad day be their last day, because we want to stop that fight quickly, right that conflict quickly. The longer a fight's allowed to go on, the more dangerous it is. We all know that right, not just for us but for them, if their body is exercising at a rate that it can't sustain. That's a problem, right right. So we got to stop that conflict very quickly and then get them upright so that they can breathe. Right, positional compressional asphyxiation. There's tons of studies out there that all contradict each other but all say no, there's something to this, right Right. And so putting them in a breathing positive position is what we got to do and that's what the RAP does, so you can look at it.
Speaker 2:Saferestraintscom. The concept is very simple If you're going to put somebody down on the ground because you're in a fight, let's put the restraint on them when they're there, instead of having to go up down, up down, forward all that stuff. It locks the legs out so they can't kick you. It has a harness to get them off their chest so that they can breathe, and it's an amazing tool. So I linked up with them professionally when I was at my agency because I needed a better tool. I found them. They're the easiest company to work with.
Speaker 2:The owner, charles, is a fantastic guy. He sent me a test unit I was a DT guy and we beat it up and it held the distance. So we adopted it. And it held, held the distance, so we adopted it. And then, because of you know, my, my training world and some of the defensive tactics worlds that I've been, I I tend to have a lot of contacts and um, I started teaching for him as an adjunct rap instructor and um, those went well, you know. So he was kind enough to offer me a director of training position to help fix not fix to help refine some of their training materials that they had at the time, you know, creating PowerPoints and stuff like that, and then teach classes and kind of get the word out that it's a better tool and that's what that role was. So that definitely helped ARC Tactical grow to what it is today. Yeah, to get the word out that it's a better tool and that that's what that role was.
Speaker 1:So right, um, that definitely helped our tactical grow to what it is today yeah, so you go in and you teach who are going to be the instructors for the agency.
Speaker 2:That's it yeah, yeah, um, you know, these days, with turnover the way it is, it's hard to to get. You put a lot of money into some 18-year-old right. They get invested in, they get all this stuff and then a police job opens up. It gets more pay for some reason Still haven't figured that out but they go and leave and now we have to start back. So instead of certifying from the company, each individual person, we certify their instructors and spend significant support time around them making sure that they're 100% ready to go and teach the rest of their team. There's test processes for that, but that's the project there is. They get emboldened and certified to teach their team and begin with that goal of keeping people safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's such an important being a master instructor the one that teaches other instructors train the trainer. That's so important because if you don't have the right person in that trainer position for the agency, the product's going to fail. I mean, I work for Pepperball so I see this. You know, if you don't have that instructor who takes that and it feels comfortable with it, they're not going to use the product, they're not going to feel comfortable with it as an agency. So it's an important thing that you do.
Speaker 2:Thank you. We also know that if it gets out there and it doesn't happen, thank goodness right, it happens, maybe like I don't know every couple of years or something, where there'd be a gnarly news story or something like that.
Speaker 2:But our training is always free, right, that's the cool thing. It's provided at no cost on initial adoption. It's provided at no cost every two years. It's provided at no cost on demand, like if you're an agency that's big. They're like hey look, we need more instructors, call us and we'll do it for free then too, right? So we have a vested interest in making sure that our instructors out there are doing what they're supposed to be doing, because it reps us as well, right, and that's that's important. But our main goal is to give our people a tool that will keep them safe, keep our community safe, keep us out of the courtroom, that type of thing.
Speaker 1:And there's also correct me if I'm wrong you guys also have like some gloves that cover the hands and stuff. That's where I got to know you guys. Is that right, because we do a lot of four points in the Bureau of Prisons and with those mental health guys you can four-point a guy and he can still reach a stitch or somewhere where he's hurt himself. So yeah, those gloves where you could cover them up and keep them from injuring themselves further.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we call them security mitts, but you're exactly right. They're like pads that go around the hand. They work around handcuffs. You could get them connected or unconnected and they have a panel in there, right, so a thing like a Kydex panel that makes it so you can't grip anything. You're just scratching a wall, essentially, right, so you can't do anything effective. But it's all made out of this very comfortable nylon mesh that is not going to lacerate you. It's not going to cause any damage. It's simply a tool to protect themselves from themselves. We have a lot of ingesters, we have a lot of self-harmers, and to the average person, they're like well, why would they do that? I don't know either, but they do and we see it and it's horrible. It's it's horrible to see, and so we want to make sure that they can't hurt themselves, especially when they're in our care, and that's a great tool to stop doing that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's one of the worst things about our prisons being used as mental health facilities these days. I've seen guys who could take a paint chip. You could take everything away and they'll get a paint chip and just cut themselves up and the public doesn't understand that. It's almost impossible to stop some of that stuff. So that's where I learned about your guys' company was, you know, researching some of that and using some of it Sure. So what does ARC stand for?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I would love to have some awesome, amazing, inspiring story. Truth is, I knew I wanted to start my own company. I was in traffic on I-5, because that's what you do on I-5, as you sit in traffic and I was like like, look, I don't want to have some gnarly name like kick-ass tactical or something like that. No, no government agency is going to hire that and be effective for obvious reasons, and that's not really our bent. In anyway, right, where our goal is to um, use principle-based training to make all officers safe and injuries less, all that stuff. But, um, I was like you know when, when I was learning to be an instructor, I kind of dove into the motor learning science stuff and they talk about, um, different processing, like system one, system two processing. There's a great book out there called Blink that talks about immediately recognizing stuff. You probably have it on your back shelf, is that right? There you go. Yep, there you go. Malcolm Gladwell, awesome book. There's a more dense version of very similar material called thinking fast and slow, um, and, and that heavily dives into system one and system two processing.
Speaker 2:And just a quick breakdown because I promise that'll answer your question. Um, the idea is. You know, uh, one system stays in the long-term memory. It it's something that you can recall, it's something that you have time to process and you can drag it out. The other system is like hey, I need to be able to read this situation right now and create a response to that. That's appropriate. One of the demos that we take our instructors through is we say hey, look, finish this sentence and I'll do it with you real quick. Finish this sentence. Bread and Milk Okay, most people say butter.
Speaker 2:So that was a yeah, they think pickles, I don't know. Anyway, then we say, okay, that was a pretty automatic response. Why? How did you know that? Well, we heard this phrase a thousand times. We know what it is. Oh, it's cool, let's do it again. How many vowels are in bread and butter? Well, now I have to start thinking. Right now I have to start dissecting. You don't know that because you don't think about that all the time.
Speaker 2:And so, when we look at the different systems, what we need to apply to corrections is an automatic response. If I open up a cell door and there's a haymaker coming my way, I don't have time to be like, hey, that's interesting, he's using all of his fists at that angle. That's really good. I don't have time to do that. It needs to be automatic. And so ARC, arc, tact arc tactical stands for automatic response concepts. Our goal is to train people so well and so frequently that when the bad thing happens, when the devil knocks at your door, you're going to have that automatic response and not have to have that buffering. I like that, that's cool.
Speaker 2:I always want an acronym Cops love acronyms and triangles for some reason, I'm not sure why. Yeah, that's what we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and yeah, I have looked into. You know the way people learn, adult learning and you're absolutely right with a lot of that stuff. The bad thing in our profession sometimes is that those automatic responses happen and we, you know we respond to them, but then someone who's not using that same level of response they're using their system too is reviewing you three days later on what you had a millisecond to come up with. And that's what all of us, that's a challenge for all of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the things that I do on as a part of our wraparound services with ARC is that I do expert witness testimony and review, and oftentimes we'll have our officers get hung out or the agency hung out to drive because, somewhere along the line, a supervisor who is put in a position that they weren't trained to evaluate or they weren't trained on this learning style stuff.
Speaker 2:They have stripes or they got bars and they're doing the best that they can. I'm not even kicking their shins. They just don't understand. And so, with that lack of understanding, they'll make a judgment call on that use of force, and that use of force could be well justified and within policy, given the information that we know at the time, which is what the standard is. That's objective, reasonableness, right, and so that type of information how people perceive things, how they learn, how they respond to things, in conjunction with how the law was written that's really one of the ways that our tactical shines as we combine all of those things with our physical skill concepts. So we do all of that and you know we have use of force review classes, we have stuff for those supervisors that are in that evaluation role.
Speaker 1:That's great. I didn't know you had those.
Speaker 2:We got all kinds of stuff man.
Speaker 1:That's great Because even for me, when I became a captain, I mean I've reviewed 500 use of forces. That's the type of places I worked at and even for myself, knowing that I had and I had done 500 before I ever reviewed 500. Right, you walk in there and you watch the film and you go well, son of a gun, did you see what they did? And you've got to be able to step back. And we tend to go to film so quick before we listen to what the officer told us, before we listen to what the other people in the area told us, and we just count on what we see. And what we see is not always correct. I can name one very specifically that I thought the the officer was just throwing punches. We'll come to find out the inmate on the bottom was biting another officer and he was trying to get him off there which is legitimate all day long you know.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I'm glad to hear that you're giving those classes to supervisors and hopefully teaching them to take that step back and understand what they're seeing.
Speaker 2:You know, whenever I review a case, there's a couple of questions that I ask, right, and the first question was why did you do the thing that you did? Okay, and we see there's so many times we get lost in operations, right, like, hey, look this guy highly combative person, he's in the cell but it's messy. So I got to go clean the cell, fight's on. Well, why did you do What's's more important? He's going to get sick because it's a messy cell or, for sure, we're going to beat this guy, right, like what's what's worse? So why are we doing the thing that you're doing? And then, secondarily, how are you trained to do the thing that you did? Right, and most of the time that I know this isn't going to be shocking to you, but most of the time the answer is oh, oh, I didn't get training on that, I just made it up and it's not going to work in a court of law, you know.
Speaker 2:So we got to, our agencies need to be putting more effort into how they're training people and it's one of those things like, look, you're going to pay now or you're going to pay later, because that's one of the things that we hear Not a lot, those things like, look, you're going to pay now or you're going to pay later, cause that's one of the things that we hear Not a lot.
Speaker 2:We don't nickel and dime people for our classes but like, yeah, we got to put it in a different budget Cause well, that's cool. But when you're on the stand and you're explaining why you didn't provide training and your answer was, well, we had to put it in the next budget Cause we didn't have time, that we didn't have the finances. Now that you're going to be paying a lot more, I mean, that's just how it is, and so I would rather take the approach of hey, let's invest in our staff, let's make them feel like they are confident in their job, that they're cared for, that they're valued, get them the tools to handle these highly dangerous situations and end up keeping the inmates safe as well and not having to be reactive off an injury or a death, instead of getting ahead of that game right. So that's kind of our advocacy there.
Speaker 1:And retention. Everybody's talking about retention. You want to keep your staff, make them feel knowledgeable, make them feel like they know what they're doing and they're supported and they're cared for Just everything you said there. That's an officer who will stay. That's an officer who's not doing it just for the money. They're doing it for the profession, because they care about what they're doing.
Speaker 2:One of the taglines that we have on our website is train your staff to retain your staff, yeah, and you just need to make them feel confident. I'll tell you, stacking up on a door, like am I? Am I supposed to be going in here? Where am I, you know? Not feeling confident in your abilities, not feeling confident with having a system to work with my teammates. They're not confident either. Right, like, let's not. They're like. One guy's done this a couple of times before. Let's figure this out. There is no like you get done at the end of the day. You're beat up, you go home, your spouse sees you. They don't want you to be doing that again because they care about you. That's how you're going to have that high turnover.
Speaker 1:Let's avoid all of that you know and I mean I'm old now, right, I could tell you now every stainless steel toilet I hit going through the door. You know my knees are tore up and I've got a shoulder that I get shots in every three months now from a dog pile. Uh, you know you pay for it later. Yeah, you said so. What's? What's the class that you know arc's teaching the most right now? What? What are the agencies looking for and what are you guys doing?
Speaker 2:that great question. Um, we have three main classes. Um, that we've. You know, our first class that we ever taught was a cell extraction class. Right, and the reason why we did that is because, first of all, there wasn't anything else out there. Um, I was like, okay, I want me personally, tim wants to go to a class on how to do an effective cell extraction, and I just heard crickets. There was nothing else out there. So I said, okay, well, if I have to figure this out for myself, how would I do this? What is the best way to do a cell extraction? And we kind of dissected it.
Speaker 2:I battle labbed it with a bunch of my other nerd buddies that dig this stuff right, and we figured out okay, well, number one that has to happen is we have to prepare right. Most of cell extractions that go wrong happen because they went in there unprepared. Nobody knew what was happening, somebody got hurt, so we have to prepare for it. The second thing that has to happen is we need to have an implementation stage that is working with a team. There are no silos. When we're going into a cell, we all have to work together because if we don't, somebody's going to do the wrong thing. It's going to counteract somebody else. It's going to be bad. And then the third thing is we have to talk about how to use force appropriately and document it after the fact, because I'll tell you, reading hundreds of corrections officers reports, there's no doubt in my mind. Like our guys aren't malicious by nature, but they don't know how to tell the average public what they did and why they did it. You know, they just don't know.
Speaker 2:So our cell extraction instructor school is a three-day school that we developed with those principals in line. It talks about all of those things. How do we prepare for a planned use of force? Do we really have to do a planned use of force? If we can, maybe we deescalate it. So to your point, when I first started I thought fighting was cool. After doing it for a little while, not so much. It hurts, it hurts a lot every day, right, um? And so how do we avoid that? By de-escalation? Uh, you know, using our tools. Um, as far as hey, look, there's a door here there's no danger. Yet maybe I don't open the door right, like those different concepts. But then, if we have to go in, how are some very basic team tactics be applied in an effective way.
Speaker 2:So that's our cell extraction instructor course, and every one of our courses truly is designed based off of the concept of how do we do this better? What is missing Is this around somewhere else. If they're doing it better, I will tell everybody, because, look, we're a company that's hoping to make money off of what we're doing, for sure, but our main goal is to improve our corrections officers, and so if there's another agency out there that's doing good work, I will toss them all the sunshine in the world. The truth is is we just looked around and couldn't find anything, so we figured it out, and what we figured out has taken us all around the world. That's what I heard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, our our first trip out outside of America, we took our cell extraction instructor course and our transport course. That's another one of our big three that is going all over the place to, um, the United Arab Emirates, and we went over there and they're like, look, um, we need, we need this information, because it's not just America, by the way. Most of the funding is going to patrol cops all over the world, and when it comes to the jail guys, we're like we'll figure it out right and so, um, they had us come over there. It was amazing experience, but the stuff that we were showing them was like showing them fire for the first time. They it was. They felt so invested in our tactics, worked there too.
Speaker 2:Uh, turns out, a body is a body is a body. So we know how to, you know, work, work that problem. And then, um, more recently, we went to australia, um, focusing on safer strength stuff, but was had an opportunity to train with some cert teams over there, showing them some of our tactics, and they ate that up too. So, um, it's tested, uh, it's it trusted, and these tools and concepts are very simple to learn. I mean, that's really the thing that we people go to our classes like, cool, we're looking for something flashy. We don't have that. We have effective, we do that real well, but if you're looking for backflips and stuff, it ain't going to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're absolutely right like backflips and stuff that ain't going to work. So, yeah, I and you're absolutely right. I find it amazing. I think we're up to 131 countries that have tuned into the podcast. Somewhere there's somebody sitting and watching an inmate in a jail and yeah, I've trained guys from overseas too, and they do it. We do a lot of things Well. I know a lot of people think that corrections in america doesn't do things well, but we actually do. Uh, we set the standard for a lot of places and they love getting our training. So I love seeing you getting to go over there. I just saw on linkedin that you'd been over there, so what a trip yeah, yeah it was.
Speaker 2:It was awesome Such a good group of people there. But really, what I found is, by and large, our corrections guys, because of the dangerous situations that they're in and because of I don't want to say lack of recognition, but I will say that they're kind of underserved. There's a humility that's built into these guys and they're so grateful, they're so generous and that's why I really think that we need to invest more into our people doing that hard work.
Speaker 1:So what's coming up next? You got any big plans?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know we're doing a couple of things. One of the things that we're doing is we're working with agencies specifically to host our courses around the country. We have several lined up. Our next one is in Douglas County, nevada. They're us out. Man, if you don't like us, cool I get it, but my guarantee is you're going to come to our class and you're going to be like this is amazing stuff. So we'll be there in June and we still got spots open for that. We're also doing a cert team school in August, september. Now I'm going to have to remember we're going to do some stuff here in Washington and one of the things I kind of glanced over is we have our DT. Instructor program is something that we've had for years. State of Tennessee adopted it as their program did a lot of work with them. Same here in Washington We've been the DT instructor program for a lot of specific corrections agencies. Our state still has our program, but we've been adopted for our DT.
Speaker 2:What's the R? Oh, I'm sorry, our, I should say the.
Speaker 1:Washington state still has our DT program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the one that I kind of grew up in. But we're kind of identified as something that supplements that, you know. So we have that that's going to be in August in in Kent, right by the airport. So if you want to fly in and check it out, we won't stop you, we'd love to have you, so that'll be fun. And then we're in Indiana in September doing a cert course. We're in Illinois in September doing a cert course. We're in Illinois in October doing a cert course, we're in Iowa doing our cell extraction course in November and then a transport course in December. Our website is always getting updated. We're doing stuff all over the place.
Speaker 2:But just to kind of piggyback of one thing that you talked about earlier, if you're an agency that does not have an academy and there's plenty of them out there they're like here's the keys you know, academy um brought to you. Light us up, because we have the arc core academy. That is one of our products that we've worked with a couple agencies on to help supplement your FTO training and help supplement that stuff. Um, because we we know that we need to get our officers out on a good foot, so that that's our goal with that Um. But you know to your point we have a lot of different classes out there. If you have a need, either we do it or we know somebody that does.
Speaker 2:So feel free to light us up at arctacnet, and you can get me at tim at arctacnet. We'd love to come train with you guys. And then the last thing I'll say is that we do in-service training in very specific states. So in Indiana, tennessee, washington, idaho, oregon. If you're a small agency that doesn't have your own instructor and you want some of the disciplines that we have, we will come to you. We have boots on the ground, instructors there that are training our systems, that work with us in conjunction with us. We'll come to you and we'll take over your in-service training. So happy to support that way as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Tim gave you the links there. But if you'll go to the show notes, of course I'll have everything in there for your contact information and our tactical and safe restraints Awesome, I'll even make sure you give me Ian's company and we'll throw that in there too. You got it, man. You got it Well, I appreciate it. It's nice to meet you face to face. I know we've emailed and LinkedIn quite a bit, but it's very nice to meet you and I've been dying to hear your story.
Speaker 2:So awesome man. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so good. I love what you're doing here. It's an important message. Our corrections officers that are doing the hard work that are there on their eighth overtime day and they're gassed out. They need to know that they're respected and they're valued and they're worthy, and this is one avenue that you're working really hard to make sure that they know that and I just thank you for what you do. Well, you're part of that to make sure that they know that, and I just I thank you for what you do.
Speaker 1:Well, and you're part of that community that I want to show off, you know, because there's so many people out there doing such good stuff in corrections, but we're all scattered and nobody hears about it. So, uh, I love bringing guys like you on here and, uh, I know there's people going hey, I need that at my agency. So go to the show notes and check out Tim and Arc Tactical. I appreciate what you do. I've heard good, good things from your classes and I'm excited to see what you got in the future.
Speaker 2:Awesome man. Thank you so much. We should do it again sometime. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely have a great day Take care. So don't click stop or don't click leave.
