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The Prison Officer Podcast
The Prison Officer Podcast is a place where prison officers and correctional staff share their experiences, discuss leadership, cope with stress, and learn survival strategies for one of the toughest careers out there. Hosted by Michael Cantrell, this podcast delves into the lives, dreams, and challenges faced by those who work inside the walls of our nation’s prisons. It features interviews, insights, and discussions related to the unique and demanding world of corrections. Whether it’s overcoming difficult leaders, understanding rehabilitation, or addressing misconceptions about incarcerated populations, the Prison Officer Podcast provides valuable perspectives from professionals in the field.
The Prison Officer Podcast
93: Leadership and Innovation in Correctional Training - Interview w/Michael Warren
Inspired by his grandfather, Michael Warren's foray into law enforcement was destined from the start, rooted in a rich family tradition of public service. Michael, the Director of Training for Command Presence and host of the Faces of Leadership podcast, joins us to share his unique journey. Michael brings a treasure trove of experiences that illuminate the passion and tradition that have shaped his career. His anecdotes offer a captivating window into the unpredictable, yet rewarding world of law enforcement.
Training and development take center stage as Michael shares his insights on transformative programs that elevate the law enforcement and corrections fields. We delve into Command Presence's innovative training methods like "Transformational Trainer" and the "Leading When It Hits The Fan" program, which focuses on building emotional intelligence and effective leadership. Michael highlights the crucial role of trainers and informal leaders, emphasizing the importance of selecting the right individuals who can foster a culture of continuous learning. Join us as we explore how these elements are key to creating safer and more effective work environments for Law Enforcement and Correctional professionals.
Michael Warren michael.warren@commandpresence.net
Command Presence https://www.commandpresence.net/
Command Presence Correctional Courses
Host a Command Presence Course at Your Agency
Faces of Leadership podcast
Training at the Speed of Life, Vol 1: The Definitive Textbook for Police and Military Reality-Based Training
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.
OMNI
OMNI is cutting-edge software designed to track inmates and assets within your prison or jail.
Command Presence
Bringing prisons and jails the training they deserve!
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Contact us: mike@theprisonofficer.com
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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
More than 28 years of corrections. I have used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times. Now as a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of this Pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. Times for officers is during cell extractions. Pepperball allows officers to respond with the lowest level of force and still be effective and ready if the situation escalates. The responding officer controls where the projectiles are aimed, how many projectiles are launched and how rapidly they're deployed. This allows the response to be tailored to the moment. To learn more about Pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below in the show's information guide. Pepperball is the safer option first.
Speaker 1:Well, welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell and today I have a guest that I've been working with for the last year. I'm really excited. His name is Michael Warren. He's the Director of training for Command Presence. He's also the host of Faces of Leadership podcast. He's a former police officer. He's a voracious reader probably the most voracious reader I've ever met, and he is a true student of leadership and leadership development and I'm proud to have him on here. I'm excited about our conversation today. Welcome to the podcast, michael Warren.
Speaker 2:Thanks, brother, I appreciate you being here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've been talking about getting you on here for a while.
Speaker 2:We have.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited you got to interview me and on your podcast and I appreciate that. If you haven't been there yet, go check out Faces of Leadership. Of course I'll put a link here in the show notes for anybody, so tell me. I always start at the beginning. That's just kind of the way I do these podcasts. Tell me where you grew up and you know kind of the path that took you into law enforcement.
Speaker 2:All right, well, my dad was an electrician. Law enforcement All right, well, my dad was an electrician, and so I always tell people that from the time I was born until about the time I was 15, we lived in a lot of different places, a lot of different places, but primarily up until 15, I lived primarily in Georgia and that's really where the path began as far as law enforcement, because my granddaddy was a Georgia State patrolman for 30 years.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, oh yeah, buddy, and I can remember as a little kid he brought his patrol car home and he let me play with the lights and sirens, yeah, and Mikey was hooked. Yeah, no, I was hooked, brother. And so you know, that kind of, that kind of was the start of the whole thing. And uh, I I come from a law enforcement family, uh, on my mom's side, and it's just one of those things. It was a bug that I just never could get rid of and never wanted to get rid of right.
Speaker 1:So even going through school, you're thinking you're. You're the kid that I'm going to be a police officer when I grow up.
Speaker 2:I was a criminal justice major. It's amazing because I don't like talking about how long ago it was, but when I was in college a long time ago, some of the guys that were in my criminal justice class I'm still friends with today were in my criminal justice class I'm still friends with today, and the bulk of us the funny thing the bulk of us have already retired, at least from our first career in law enforcement. And, man, I just tell you, it's just one of those things that once it gets into your blood, if it really gets into your blood, it's there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so was it the? Was it the perception Cause I'm sure your father looked just, or your grandfather looked just larger than life as a Georgia state trooper to a little kid. Was it the public service? Was it you see in him as someone who helped people? What was it that kind of in that kid mind?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, he was larger than life and I called him pop and in fact you know, just to give you a little side note here uh, when, uh, my grandson was born earlier this year, uh, I carried with me to the hospital a picture of pop wearing his georgia state patrol uniform and holding me as a baby, and I carried it with me as a reminder that that's the kind of grandfather that I want to be for my grandson. And so he was larger than life, but growing up on both sides of my family you know, one side, you've got law enforcement and military, and on the other side, my dad's side, you've got you've got military. My dad's an air force vet, it's just it. I was around public service, uh, my whole life and it's and I don't want to say it was expected, but it certainly was the norm, and so I guess it was a combination of those things. The idea of, of, of continuing on the tradition of being a productive member of society and man, I just tell you it didn't disappoint us for sure.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So yeah, you started in law enforcement a while back and we talk about this sometimes. It was a different world applying for law enforcement 30 years ago. There were more people showed up for the test. There were, you know. The physical standards that you had to meet are a whole different thing. Tell me about some of that. The first time you went and applied, and where did you apply and what was that like?
Speaker 2:I was very fortunate I got picked up pretty quickly once I started applying but there was a lot of competition for the position that I got. But you know, mike, it was one of those things where I don't like using the word, but I was really kind of naive. Naive about what it was. I mean I teach college classes right now for criminal justice, right. I mean I tell I teach college classes right now for criminal justice, right. And one of the things I try to get across to students is one of the things I didn't know back then were just how many different types of law enforcement jobs or work. You know, I mean just in the federal government. I mean you know just about every agency has their own law enforcement section and just I knew FBI, atf, dea, but that was about the scope of what I knew on the federal side, and so it was a lot different. I mean people wanted in because they did believe in public service and it also didn't hurt that there were benefits.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, and I just got to bring this up. I'm still learning all the aspects of law enforcement. I had a class not too long ago. Two guys were in there from the national geospatial um and they they were on the police force. It's in St Louis and all the mapping and satellite images and stuff for the. They have a police force for that and these guys were coming through a pepper ball class.
Speaker 1:I was like I'd never heard of that and I've been doing this forever. See, I learned something today, so yeah, um. So tell me about the where you started working. What was that like your first?
Speaker 2:tell me about your first week man, I remember, uh, the first week out of the academy. You know what I'm saying, dude, I wanted to go out and I wanted to rest. Everybody, everybody didn't want I came in early, stayed after my shift, but. But the problem was, there's this thing called the in-house Academy. And if a funny story, at least funny to me there were three of us that started together and we all went to the Academy together and, and our FTO? We weren't in the FTO program, we were in the in-house program.
Speaker 2:But she decided to take us out on the road and so she puts us in the only vehicle that wasn't a Crown Vic, and so she puts us in there. Well, me and one other guy named Kevin, we're in the backseat, and then she makes this decision she's going to pull a traffic stop. Well, it didn't take us very long to figure out that we were stuck in that backseat. Brother, you can't open the door. So we're kind of sitting back there like this, together going. What are we going to do if they come out shooting? I guess we're going to sit here and watch because we can't get out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those back doors are made that way, so that's right right get out. Yeah, that's hilarious, and nobody had thought to reach back and just touch the handle for you.
Speaker 2:No, you know, you know, just throw the window down, do something. You know, give us an out, but, but. But we're, he and I, we're so naive and we're so jacked up into it. You know, we're just like, oh, oh, son of a gun, these handles don't work.
Speaker 1:She could have rolled the window down. You could have pretended like you were the canine.
Speaker 2:That's right, I've been good at it too, you know. But you know we talk about it in our leading without rank class, with command presence. What it was like when you, when you first found out you got the job, and what it was like you when you first started the job and and I don't want to overstate it, but it was truly, at least for me, it was magical, you know. You know, it was like the culmination of all these dreams as a little boy and going to college and stuff. I just I was all in brother. That's cool.
Speaker 1:You didn't lose the magic. No, yeah, I like that. So, um, as you go into this career, tell me, tell me a couple of things you learned, cause you hit it on the head there that you came out of the gates. You know you want to fix everything. We all do. We're running just a hundred miles an hour and then we figure out that the world doesn't get fixed that way. You know you can't beat your head against everything you come up to. Tell me about learning some of that. How community policing, how getting to know the people kind of changed that for you.
Speaker 2:Well, buddy, you said something really profound there, because, number one, I came in with a belief that I could fix everything, and then it took me a little bit, but then I realized that, man, I got to make sure I stay fixed, or I'm unable to fix anything, you're right. And so that was an eye-opener for me. And then, if you talk about misconceptions, I grew up down south. Primarily, like I told you, and I'll be very frank with you, one of the things that I struggled with early in my career was the concept or the idea of using force against a female. You know, I was always told you know, you take care of females, you open doors for them, you carry things for them, all those things right there. So I guess I just never quite considered that there might be some females that don't want the door held and in fact they might want to whoop you, and so that was something I just remember early in my career, that being something that I really struggled with from a mindset perspective.
Speaker 2:Uh, but then you know the you talked about community policing and, um, I'll be the first to admit that, probably early in my career, I wasn't a good community police officer. Uh, I was. I was looking to find people doing things wrong. And if that's all that you're looking to do is find people doing things wrong, uh, then you're not going to have a lot of conversation with them. You're going to have a lot of talking to them when you catch them doing something wrong, but outside of that there's not a lot of interaction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know in corrections we get pretty cynical pretty quick when we go in. Did you notice that come up on you? Did you become cynical early in that career? Did it take a while?
Speaker 2:You know, it's one of those things where I think it took a little bit, because I try to see the good in people. I try to see the good in people but again, that mindset of you're constantly looking for the bad. What's the old saying it said if you're looking to find people who are jerks, it's amazing how many jerks you can find. And if you're looking to find people doing things wrong, it's amazing how many things that you can find people doing wrong. And so I guess some might call it cynicism, but it certainly negatively impacted my perspective and my outlook of those in the community that I was supposed to be serving.
Speaker 1:So where did you? I guess I didn't ask where did you go to work first? What was there?
Speaker 2:It's called Novi, michigan. It's part of the Detroit metro area, part of the Tri-County area, right there, 32 square miles. When I started it was just under 50,000 residents. I think now it's up over 60. Busy shopping district. We had the city, had some money, we had some very poor parts of the city but had an interstate that ran through there. That tend to make things a little bit exciting, but but it was. It was a great place to work.
Speaker 1:Much overflow from Detroit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so we, we sat right at the intersection of a I-96 and I-275. And whenever you have the, the interstates, you have people that have the ability to come in and then leave quickly if they need to.
Speaker 1:So Right Right. Yeah, that was a shock for me. I was a country boy, I grew up in a small town and then when I walked into a penitentiary for the first time, so did you kind of feel that way, coming from smaller areas in the South.
Speaker 2:You know the city not so much, but I'll be very upfront with you. When I did feel overwhelmed like that was the first few times that I went to Oakland County jail.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know we had to drop somebody off. Very rarely during days or afternoons did you have to go up to the jail, but at the night, during the night aons, did you have to go up to the jail, but at the night, during the night. A lot of times you would go up there to drop off or pick up people. Sure, and I can remember you pull into the big sally port right and the doors would close down and these weren't regular doors, right, these are reinforced steel doors and they would pop open and you would take your prisoner in there. But off off to the left when you came into intake, off to the left was the big holding pen and the the they. There would be a ton of people in there, buddy, and you're talking about a diverse perspective of society.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what, that's what you got right there. But but there's, there's a certain bravado that comes when you're in the majority, and they certainly were in the majority and at this point they really didn't have a lot to lose. And that was I hate to use the word scary, but it's kind of scary to me. It was, it was from a um, it was overstimulating. There was a lot of input, sensory input.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, absolutely. And you know we get this notion in corrections and law enforcement that we're in control a lot of times, and then we often get put in those places like that and we go, yeah, I'm in control, but that could go away quickly. Yes, and it sets you back a minute, that could go away quickly.
Speaker 2:Yes, it sets you back a minute. You know, in American society our leaders serve at the consent of the governed, and the truth of the matter is, in many ways our control in law enforcement is at the consent of those being controlled Absolutely. Those being controlled Absolutely and so, but? But yeah, oakland County. I can remember the first time I had to go down to the female annex and you know he had to walk through number one dude, I was so lost I had no idea. If I'd have had an emergency, I'd have had to call for help and they'd have asked where I was and I'd have no idea. Right, I'll just start screaming and you guys listen for the screen.
Speaker 1:Everything's gray walls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly but but, and that that's. That's exactly the the, the sense it was. It was almost like a a feeling of doom, because everything's concrete or steel, it's all painted the same color. It just it's not. It's not sterile like a hospital.
Speaker 1:It. I feel all that I absolutely do.
Speaker 2:I was also honored to be given some some pretty high profile cases that we had at our agency and in fact, my, my, my partner for a lot of the time was Victor Loria, who also happens to be an instructor for command presence, and and it was during that time, right there, where I really began to understand the importance of people being properly prepared for the job that they had been given, and so so, if I can just kind of share because most of the things I learned I learned because I screwed them up, right, um, my, my, my, my, the. I'm a brand new detective dude. I don't know if you know this about michigan, but there are times where michigan gets really cold and then we've got this white stuff that makes it interesting.
Speaker 2:But I but I got, I got caught, I got sent out to this, this b&e right so I grabbed the equipment, you know, got up my gear and everything I get out there and, um, I had no idea how to take the film this was 35 millimeter how to take the film out of the camera, and so this was back. We had a little star trek. You know flip phones, and so I'm calling up on the detectives because you don't want to, you know, you don't want to dime yourself out. You know, dude, I don't know how to, I don't know how to change a film and I need to get another, I need to get another role in there, and just something as simple as that right there, how to use the basic equipment, all of those things right there. I mean thank goodness it wasn't a very big scene, because it could have been catastrophic from a court perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, Preparing people for those steps up is something that often gets lacked. It did on my part too, and you know I've talked about this. You know we become great tactical leaders and then people see that and they go well, he'd make a good, you know. Move him to the next step, move him to the captain, move him to the detective. But did they prepare us for what you're going to do? Because when I went from lieutenant to captain, I went from just having this group of correctional officers. I run out in front, they follow me, we do the job, and now I'm in charge of a whole institution to include medical and education and all this stuff that I had no idea about, and so, yeah, yeah, you know you said something right there.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, you know you said something right there. We in this profession often think, because somebody's good at one job, that that success is going to transfer seamlessly and easily to another job. Yeah, and that's not always the case. In fact, I would say most of the times it's not the case.
Speaker 1:There's different levels of leadership that require different skills, and that's one of the things Well.
Speaker 2:We become comfortable in what we do and we think the tool that worked at one level is going to work at the next. And sometimes it doesn't work catastrophically. It's a different toolbox, yeah, absolutely, not just different tools, whole new box.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So you do the detective gig and I know at some point you really get into training. Yeah, what, what was that? What? What is it that? I know for myself what that answer is, but for you, what is it that drew you to training inside the department?
Speaker 2:man, well, once I started going to training for, uh, the, the role that I was already playing right, it was actually playing because I wasn't performing, I was playing Once I started realizing the impact that good quality training had, not just on my tactical skills, my technical skills, but but it also made me help. It also helped me make better decisions. I started, I started.
Speaker 2:But, man, this, this right here, is kind of a game changer, and and and, if I could, one of the days we, we, we had set aside a day, a Friday, where we were going to every person that was a detective had chosen something, some school they'd gone to in the past six months and they were going to do a presentation to their fellow detectives and the idea was the spread and the wealth of knowledge. And Vic and I, we were actually doing one on fingerprinting of bodies and it had a twofold thing. Number one we had had a thing where we had a lady where we had to go up and fingerprint her body to get her fingerprints to confirm identity, which is a whole different thing. If you're rolling somebody's finger, yes, it is, but then also lifting a latent fingerprint off of a body, when you start showing people and you know, that whole, that realization that now that they got it, that was kind of addictive to me, not going to lie to you.
Speaker 1:There you go. Yeah, that's a great idea, bringing them in and having everybody teach a little bit. You don't have to always, and I did a little deal on the podcast a couple of podcasts ago. Every time you walk and talk to one of your officers, every time you interact with one of your staff, that's a chance for you to train them Just a little bit. It doesn't have to be the training day where you take eight hours and everybody gets in a seat, something like that, where you just bring hey, you've been to training recently, you've been to training recently come in here and help everybody else understand.
Speaker 2:That's a great idea. In the army they call it hip pocket training. You know where, where, where, yeah, where. Yeah, listen, you know we got a little down time right now, but hey, let's take this opportunity to learn in a small group. It's unstructured, it's unplanned. That doesn't mean that it's not being delivered by a SME, but it's a great opportunity to spread the knowledge regularly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's one question. You were in the Army. Yesterday was Veterans Day. Thank you for your service.
Speaker 2:Thank you, sir, appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so did you do law enforcement in the Army?
Speaker 2:No, no, I was infantry.
Speaker 1:I just wondered if it led into that for you or?
Speaker 2:some people do. No, it was just one of those things where you know you have the undeveloped prefrontal cortex making decisions about what job you should do. Boy, it sounds fun.
Speaker 1:I know about that. Yes, I know about that, yes. So training becomes for you the rest of your career and into the next career. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:So kind of walk me through that. What did you start off doing? And then where did you take that? And I know you worked for a couple of places. I want to hear about those.
Speaker 2:Well, we, we, the, the, the training in the detective section really started to, um, really started the fire. Uh, when I was a detective. I was then assigned to dea, detroit, uh, for for a few years, nice and um, that was one of those things where I was reminded again how the lack of training can negatively impact things. And and and you know you, you go down to to DEA and you've got to start, and we went and did our first enforcement thing and they say, are you going to write the six? And I'm like, I'm sorry, the, what they said, the six.
Speaker 2:I said I have no idea what you're talking about. Right, that's the narrative and I can write a narrative. But but, uh, you know it's it's how much better, how much more productive would I have been up front if it had been structured, intentional training on the front end. And so, after seeing that a couple of times you know I'm a slow learner so after seeing that a couple of times, and I come back and, uh, I get promoted to Sergeant, and then I made the training in standard Sergeant.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And now I'm responsible for, for coordinating and organizing, uh, the training for my agency. And I was. I was blessed because I had a guy named Tom Orlowski, that was a police officer in Novi that for a long time we were peers and then I got promoted and so I outranked him, but Tom never, ever ceased to lead up. And so I can remember Tom walking into my office one time and saying Mike, here's a book you need to read. Tom ain't got time to read. No book, man, dude, I'm busy. And he goes, mike, he goes. I'm telling you, this will change, this will change your professional life. I said, mike, you need to read it. And he gives me Training at the Speed of Life by Ken Murray. And so you know, I'm okay, tom, I'll read the book.
Speaker 2:But I didn't start reading the book, man. And then he goes hey, mike, how's the book come along? Eh, it's coming along good. And finally he goes Mike, listen, you need to read the book. And I did and it changed my life. And Tom never let me settle. He never, never let me settle. And because he was already a defensive tactics and farms instructor and he recognized the generational impact that a trainer can have on an agency, but it can be for good or it can be for bad, and Tom was intentional about making sure that what was provided was good, and so that that's where that's where the okay. You know what we're going to do this. We've got to do this right, which means you've got to do the research, and that's where it started.
Speaker 1:And I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Whether you're the team leader, whether you're the lieutenant captain, warden chief, whatever, one of the most important decisions you'll make is who your trainer's going to be. They set the culture, they set the knowledge level. All of that comes from the people that train, and I don't know about law enforcement, but in corrections I've seen so much over the years. We get this failed supervisor and we don't know what to do with them. Put them over in training. What do you think you just did to everybody else? Why is it? Does that happen in law enforcement?
Speaker 2:There's a couple of places you stick them. You can stick them in the property room right, which is a terrible place to stick them, because, I don't know, let's think that that's the evidence. I don't know, that might be important for court cases, who knows?
Speaker 1:Discredited employee yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know and tell me if your experience was the same. Okay, tom Orlowski was one of the best leaders that I ever worked with. He never got promoted, never did, but that didn't stop him from not only leading but also providing training at that level. Right there, tom, just it's not that he it's not that he couldn't have been promoted, he just never tried to get promoted. He was content where he was and some of the best, most competent people that I've ever worked with were frontline workers. And there were some leaders and I say leaders, quote unquote leaders that looked down on them as less than because they didn't have any formal rank, any formal authority in the agency.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got three or four that just hit my mind immediately. And I, you know, since I've been out doing other stuff, I've been like, hey, you want to come to work? No, I'm done, I'm done. But they had more impact on the agencies I worked at and, like you said, just, uh, they were just this person on this team or or this person on this shift, but everybody looked to them when there was a question and every leader out there should understand when people quit asking you questions, you're doing something wrong. And if you see a person out there who everybody's asking a question to, this is a person you need to pay attention to because they've got natural leadership or developed leadership. You know it comes both ways and see what they're doing, because that's what's happening there. It's just this organic thing where, where they set the standard, people know that they're authentic and they look that way when it's time for leadership, way when it's time for leadership.
Speaker 2:And I think, from a training perspective, that when you're looking for those people, when things are really tense, when they're really stressful and things are just about, as we say, hit the fan right when a person shows up and you can feel the tension reduced in your people because they know that things are going to get done correctly. Now you know those are the people that that they may not be formally training, but they're probably informally training. They're probably doing a pretty daggone good job of it yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna back up just a little bit, because you also mentioned something else, which was this guy had to almost talk you into reading a book. And for what little I've known you. It just blows my mind. This guy is a voracious reader and he remembers it and he, he can tell you what's in this book and what book it was in and who wrote it. And I I've leaned so much into a lot of what you've told me and picked up books that you've told me, uh, and learned so much in the last year, since we've got to know each other and I think it's you who says it all the time you know, not all leaders are readers, but, yeah, not all readers are leaders, but all leaders are readers.
Speaker 2:That's correct. Well, I've always been a big reader and I have to credit that to my grandma. So my granddaddy was a Georgia state patrolman. My grandma was a schoolteacher and unfortunately I lost her when I was nine. But every day after school, when she would get home from school, I'd go to her house and we'd have a quote unquote tea party, which means we would drink Kool-Aid and I'd eat Cheetos. But the most important thing is we'd read. And so she instilled in me a love of reading. But at the time the only thing that I was reading was fiction. I was huge into Tom Clancy and WEB Griffin and authors like that, and I never considered the nonfiction thing until Tom Morlowski, and so that's kind of where, where, where it started. But uh, you know, mike, I guess, I guess I. It was one of those things where I finally realized you know what, mike? It's impossible for you to know everything, but that doesn't mean that you don't have access to the knowledge. You just have to take advantage of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. And I'll tell you a little tip or trick that I learned from a former associate warden of mine. I go over to his house to visit him and I come in and his his coffee table there's like 10 books and they're all open. They've all got pieces of paper in them and I'm like what book are you reading? He said all of them. I said you're not reading all of them. I said all of them. I said you're not reading all of them. I said which? He said no, he said it depends on the day. He said I'll pick up this book today and I'll read six pages, and tomorrow I'll read six pages. Here I think people have the misunderstanding that you have to sit down and go through one book. No, go grab it from all of them, get what you need.
Speaker 2:Would you agree with me that that that sometimes the book is the right book, but it's the wrong time.
Speaker 2:Yes, and if you've got those things right there available to you. Uh, you know, I I'm I'm very impatient when it comes to reading now, and so if I start reading a book and and I don't feel like it's going to deliver what I need, I'll set it aside. But that doesn't mean that two months from now, that a need might arise and I'll oh you know what I think it may be over there, and so I have to agree with you. And the other thing is too and I struggle with this is we have to get outside our domain? Is we have to get outside our domain? The answers are probably out there for the problems that we have, but they may not have corrections in front of them or they may not have police or law enforcement but we just have to go grab it and find out how we can apply it.
Speaker 1:You know, I think over the last decade or so that I can think of I may be off on times just a little bit you know coming up every time somebody talked about leadership reading, it was Maxwell Ziegler. You know there was these certain names. And then I remember in one of the impactful books for me was extreme ownership by Jocko Wilma, and here was a Navy seal completely foreign to what everybody else in the world goes through, except for what they went through. And here he took a book and made it applicable to everybody. And now you see more and more and more of that where military's crossing over, law enforcement's crossing over even corrections we're seeing some books in there that are crossing over and everybody's figuring out leadership doesn't have to do with this area or that area, it has to do with all of them well it.
Speaker 2:Two of the two of my favorite areas to go to uh are aviation and sports yeah and one would think that those have nothing, no crossover whatsoever, with what we do. But, man, the lessons learned is absolutely incredible.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, well, so let's. One of the things I want to talk about today, of course, is and we've been talking about training and leadership is command presence. We both work for command presence. Earlier this year John Bostain called me and he said I want to start teaching corrections. So kind of walk me through command presence, kind of the history. Tell me a little bit about John, because John's been in training a long time, also like you, and tell me how that relationship formed and how this started.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, john started off in the Navy and then he became a police officer in Virginia. But then he heard about this place called Flutze and you know, by this time John was doing some teaching in the academy and he goes, man, he goes, you know, he goes doing this full time. That really, really appeals to me. And so he ended up getting the job at Flutzy, moving down to Brunswick, georgia, and he, he, he loved the impact that he had with the people that came through the at the federal law enforcement training center. You know the and, but, but he, he felt like he was. I hate using the word restricted, but you kind of fall into a niche. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, you're this person right here, you know, but I've got so much more to offer, right.
Speaker 1:I worked for the federal government. Yeah, no, you don't understand, got so much more to offer.
Speaker 2:Right, I work for the federal government. Yeah, no, you don't understand, we've got classifications, right. Yeah, but he made the decision that he wanted to go out on his own, and so he started doing some work and got together a couple other fellows and Command Pres presence was born. Now the other guys that he started with fantastic trainers. But, but you know, working in a training company is not for the faint of heart. It's, it's a hard life, and they decided that they, uh they, they weren't up to it, and if they weren't up to it, then they weren't going to deliver.
Speaker 2:So, john and I, we actually met back in 2011 at an Aelita conference in Illinois, okay, and I went to. You know, I'd gone through it was my very first Aelita and I'd gone through and I picked up my courses. What's this below 100,? Train the trainer. I'll go do that. Sounds interesting. But this guy starts talking up versus what's this below 100? Train the trainer. I'm gonna do that sounds interesting. Well, this guy starts talking up there, dude, and I was blown away and and so I go up and I talked to him and his name was john bostane, and so he and I started talking, but then it turns out that john's hometown is novi, michigan really, which is where I did my policing career.
Speaker 2:Now, john, he left right after high school to join the Navy, so our paths never crossed there, but we stayed in contact with each other and we'd see each other at Aelita and he came to my agency, did a couple of days of training and one of them was a transformational trainer and I loved that class right, and so next year at Ael a, I said hey, man, man, if you get a second during the week, I'd like to talk to you. I got a couple ideas and so we meet and we sit down. He goes oh, what do you want to talk to me about? I said, dude, I love transformational trainer, but you need a second day. He goes what do you mean? That's what the transformational trainer is focused on. On the micro level. I said I think you need something. What does that look like in a training program? And the macro level? And he goes. You know what? I think you're right. He goes how would you like to write it? I said I'm all in. And so that's where we started.
Speaker 2:And it's funny because I was standing with him at the booth and a good friend of ours, a guy who's become a good friend of ours, giant of a man comes up and starts talking to John and he's talking about transformational training and he goes man, I wish it was a second day to address programs. He goes do you guys have something like that? And John kind of looks over, he goes, as a matter of fact, we're working on right now. And, and John kind of looks over, he goes, as a matter of fact, we're working on right now. And so it ended up being a guy from NYPD, their counterterrorism division, eddie O'Brien. And so that's where we started.
Speaker 2:And because it wasn't the way human beings make decisions, it was not the way the laws made, and so he was, he was at the forefront of that. And so when he started talking to you about corrections, I'm like son of a gun, that makes a heck of a lot of sense. Yeah, and so, and and I don't know if you know this or not, but uh, I was the one that sent him to you because, uh, you and I had talked on on a previous podcast and, uh, we were talking about correctional stuff. I said I happen to know a guy and, um, so that that that's where John and I but. But can I share real quick where, where? Uh, how I came across you.
Speaker 1:Sure Okay.
Speaker 2:Because I love, I love LinkedIn, sure, okay, because I love LinkedIn, right, and I spend a lot of time on there and I started seeing these posts from this guy that was a podcast host and I'm like what is this guy? But you know what it was. That drew me to you no-transcript to officer. And I'm one of those guys that believes in the power of word and I'm like I can tell already that this guy gets it. And so I started reading some of your posts and then I reached out to you over LinkedIn and here we are today.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. Um, yeah, it's amazing how intertwined the last year has been with everything that we've been doing. It really is stepping back across paths that we've walked before with other people and I'm going to tell you about the conversation with John. So he called me up and he said I want to do for corrections. You know what we're doing for law enforcement. And I was like, okay, yeah, that sounds good, and I'm, you know, I'm kind of nod law enforcement. And I was like, okay, yeah, that sounds good, and I'm, you know, I'm kind of nodding my head on the phone and stuff. And he said I want to give corrections to training they deserve. And I went, wow, okay, I'm listening because I and people don't understand this. And law enforcement gets a lot of money spent on training they do. And they get to go outside of their department and go to another department. And you know I teach pepper ball so I get to see all these agencies working together and they grow and they network and they take pieces from here and they make their department better.
Speaker 1:Corrections tends to be taught by the same people inside the department over and, over and over again One of the last classes I set in the Bureau of Prisons, literally, I'm not kidding. This guy walked out and he goes. Well, this is the 55th time I've taught this class to a class and I'm like, well, this is going to be great. Thank you for that.
Speaker 1:You know, that's not what people want to hear, right? They don't want to hear that you've done this 55 times and then it's the same training. They want something new. They want, they want something that they could take, make part of who they are and apply it and make the world safer. Man, make, make. Uh, you know it's. One of the reasons I went into training was I saw what I was teaching people making their jobs safer, making them better able to handle those moments that none of us are ready for law enforcement or corrections. I don't care how long you've been doing this. You run into these things that you're just it's not normal. And now you, you have to take experience and deal with it.
Speaker 2:Well, it seemed.
Speaker 2:It seems to me and of course you and I work in different parts of the system, but my experience has been is that, when it comes to training, the inmates aren't the only ones who are held captive, that are held captive in a facility.
Speaker 2:And the problem is, when your family tree is lacking branches, yes, it becomes problematic. And so Mike, john and I we were teaching a class down in Orlando, florida, a few years ago, and one of the most impactful things from that three days of training was a correctional officer from Orange County and he gets up there it's a de-escalation class and he gets up there in front of the class and he goes hey, you know what? You cops on the street. Every once in a while you get dispatched to the bad neighborhood, he said. But in corrections we live in the bad neighborhood and I was like son of a gun. That's beautiful. It's one of those things that, because it's not readily visible certainly not to the public, but even other parts of law enforcement, I think, unfortunately, in many cases it's neglected and it makes it less safe for the officers and also for the people they've been charged with taking care of.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and we are there to keep those inmates safe and to make it a safe place. And inmate 80%, 70% I don't know what the percentage is but most of the inmates want a safe place to do their time. Maybe, maybe, learn a little bit about themselves, learn a little bit about a vocation and go back out in society. Most of them want that and we we owe that to them. So one of the things I've got to see this year and you and I have got a class coming up together next month is the work that Command Presence has been doing with TCI, and this has been amazing for me to watch. Tell me a little bit about how Command Presence got into that and what we've been doing, because I don't think I've seen it anywhere else.
Speaker 2:Well, it was one of those things where Command Presence delivered a presentation. There happened to be a guy there named David Alola, who's in charge of training for TCI, and he liked it. And that's another visionary guy right there, by the way, because he saw things at a much grander scale than what I would have ventured into. But, man, he put together this idea. He bought into the idea that there needs to be leadership at all levels. That leadership is the answer to many of the problems that we have, no matter what profession we're in, but certainly in the, the correction side of things.
Speaker 2:So so you put together these three tiers. So you've got tier one, which is, uh, the, the front line leadership, and then you've got tier two, which is what you and I'll be doing next month, which are people in the middle of the organization. And then just last week, we ran the first tier three, which is the executive level training. And, mike, listen, I'm a very emotional person, but the gratitude and the thankfulness that the people that were in our class had to have access to good quality training that was focused and this is important was focused on correctional officers, not just they just happened to be a tag-along in a class man. I was blown away by how happy they were that they were being served Sure.
Speaker 1:And I saw the same thing while I was out there.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things people miss about corrections is and this is something I've preached for a while where I work, I told my trainers and the people that gave training do not go out there and put on a half-assed training because we get such a small amount of break from that job. You go down, you're working in damn near a basement with maximum security, inmates, eight, 16 hours a day and you don't even see the sun sometimes. And you don't even see the sun sometimes. To get a day of training, good training, to go sit in a class and learn something about yourself and your skills and gain knowledge that you can take into work and improve your life and the life of the people you work with and the life of the people you're watching, means so much to a correctional officer. It just does. We don't get that break. It's not like we get to go once a week, you know. So I absolutely see what you're talking about for them to just they just feel how much we cared about it.
Speaker 2:Well, I would be remiss if I didn't bring this up right here. Okay, because a couple of weeks ago you also delivered a class out on the western side of the state of Michigan and because I was checking up on you, I went and I read some of the reviews from it and one of the reviews really stuck out in my mind was that this person was so grateful at the quality of training that was received. The quality of training that was received. But then there was an added thing that it was somebody from their field that delivered it, and they talked about the credibility, and so you blew them away on two different fronts. And the thing is, is it now you like? It's like those federal jobs I didn't know anything about. You know, the, the, the. Now this guy goes, wait. So you mean being a good quality trainer and delivering good quality training is a possibility, something I could potentially do. Man, that's how you make the generational impact right there and start on the west side of the state of Michigan.
Speaker 1:Great. That was such a fun class. You know, I didn't know going into it because we were going to do some role play and sometimes people go, oh you know, but it was report writing, depositions and testimony and I have had few classes where I had that much engagement. I mean, they were into their roles. We had prosecutors and defense attorneys and the witnesses and stuff and they were calling people to the stand and we learned so much and I'm going to tell you I learned as much from watching those guys as they ever learned from me. It was a great class.
Speaker 2:Well, don't you think that? Right, there is a sign of a professional instructor, the one who learns because you just may. When you said that, you made me think about that. This will be the 55th time that I've delivered this thing. Yeah, but what have you learned during those 55 times? You know well, because you should have learned something that should have had some impact on what you're delivering, but if not, then all you're doing is talking. You're not listening at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that goes directly to command presence. The like, fifth, sixth slide on a lot of our classes is what Iron sharpens iron. And that's absolutely true. If you go out there thinking you are the only one that knows something, you're never going to grow, you're never going to get sharper.
Speaker 2:But if you go to the class thinking they can sharpen me as much as I can sharpen them, what was I, you, when we talked after your class and and you're like mike man, I learned so much that somebody brought some time. You know, I never considered that and and and that. Right, there is what. That's what command presence training is all about. It's about the shared ideas, because I really like, I really liked the idea that we're not teaching the class, we're facilitating the class, and and if we're humble enough as instructors to allow, to allow ourselves to be taught, then things are going to be much better in the classroom.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know, in the classroom. Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know I was lucky. Well, I was lucky and I took the initiative. But when I realized I didn't have access to some of the training that I wanted in my career I had a great wife and she would set aside money once a year. I'd get to go pick a class and I dealt with a lot of what you're talking about with the corrections guys, because there weren't corrections classes.
Speaker 1:So I'd go out to Caliber Press and I'd go to one of those classes you know and I'd go to this class or a firearms class and it was all law enforcement classes and I was the tag along and I was getting what I could out of it, which made me valuable when I got back to work, because I had ideas and I had knowledge outside of what my agency had taught me and I credited absolutely to what allowed me to go up in the agency. But I always felt like I was kind of the afterthought and I'm so happy that we're coming together. We're pushing to get corrections their own training with command presence. Command presence does such a great job with law enforcement already. It's not like we're, you know, like we don't have anything to do.
Speaker 2:But, but. But it's. It's the opportunity to serve and underserve part of the criminal justice profession. And, mike, you and I we've talked about how the actions of police officers on the street can have negative impact on the safety of the officers within our correctional facilities. But the actions of the officers in our correctional facilities can have negative impact on the officers in our correctional facilities, can have negative impact on the safety of our community and for the police officers. The truth of the matter is, most of those people are going to be released back into society and it's not just about safe now, it's about safe going forward, and that comes about through good quality training. And so, on behalf of command presence, I have to say thank you, man, because you've been freaking, killing it, but but we're not done yet, are we?
Speaker 1:no, no, we're not done. Um, I, I and I'll go into you know, I spent a lot of time this summer, uh, developing classes, some of them command presence was, had already been teaching some stuff, so we took it and we made it just for corrections, like leading without rank. I mean, no matter what you're at, even corporations need a class about leading without rank. You guys have been doing it for police. We've we've retooled it and made it specific to corrections and we've brought that one out there, um, essentials and correctional excellence, which for me it's not only about not just surviving but thriving as a correctional officer and it's also there's a part of that in there. That is just. I want people to understand that we're part of the criminal justice system and we're a big part of it and we matter, because I think sometimes corrections, they feel lost, they feel like an afterthought. So that's also part of that how you're part of that system and the important role you play.
Speaker 1:What we've been doing with tier two is leading with when it hits the fan, which has been a great class. I mean we get to go into a lot of scenarios. We get to talk about how to deal as a supervisor. First on the scene. Those first minutes matter. How much do they matter? Same as a police officer, that police officer that first rolls up on the scene determines a lot of stuff. And as a detective, I bet you realize that more than anybody.
Speaker 2:Well, can I just throw something in there about that Sure Leading when it hits a fan? Sure, this is something dude. I admit I'm a simple person. This is something I never considered. So during my time as a police officer, I was an accident investigator, so if we had a serious accident resulted in serious injury or death, I was one of the people who would come in and do the investigation.
Speaker 2:Well, most of the time that involves shutting down a road right, and the bigger the road, the worse. It was that people wanted to open back up, but my boss was always very good. So you take all the time that you need. I'll handle the calls from the irate citizens and stuff like that. But then, you know, got to got to talking with guys from the correction side. So if you guys have a stabbing in the chow line, well, if you keep that chow line shut down too long now, you run the risk of more stabbings. And so there are these multifaceted things when things go wrong that you have to consider. We don't want to compromise the investigation, but we also have to understand that we could be compromising safety the longer this goes on, and so it was one of those things I was blown away by, and I think that leading when it hits a fan does such a good job of picking up the nuances that are specific to corrections.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, people. Containment, you know that's something that on the outside you don't think about, but in prison everybody has to contain where they're at and if you're on the medical ward you got to get them doors shut. You got to get those inmates locked because things can grow and anybody that's been in prison during a riot or a large disturbance knows how quickly it's like a fire that people throw gasoline on and you've got to have that containment in all those areas. You know just little stuff like that, but that's what makes it specific when we're teaching that to corrections. They understand that.
Speaker 2:You know they, they work in it, they deal with it well, you know, I have a lot of people that talk to me about, uh, the the mental health crisis that's going on uh in america, and people say, well, you know what? We shut down all those of those institutions and now they're out in the public. So, not really, because I think many of them are found, unfortunately, in the homeless population, but you also find a lot of them on the corrections thing, and so correctional officers they're having to fulfill a role that was handled for decades by specialists with specialized training. And now you have to do that, and with also keeping safety in mind, if we want better results, then we have to provide better training, and that's what we're striving to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely Command presence, and I've got to sit through a couple of these trainings and that's why I wanted to highlight this. I know some people are going to look at the podcast today. They go well, is this corrections oriented? Because everything I've done is corrections oriented on this podcast. This is absolutely corrections oriented. That's why I wanted you on there. I wanted to talk about the level of training that command presence brings. It's not just this guy and that guy. I've seen some amazing instructors. You're one of them. You know. I've sat there and listened to you talk and you grab a hold of a class, you engage them and your knowledge and the way you lead them through leadership discussions I really like, like I said earlier, leadership development. You're a student of it and you show that in class. John Bostain, vic Ray I mean, these are top-level instructors, right, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:You know I don't know about you, but we also have another new instructor that makes me feel old, miles Cook, and you know the dude was named last year, in 2023, as one of IACP's 40 under 40. But, but the passion that dude brings to a classroom, yeah, I get to go. Next week I'll be with him for a day in Huntington, west Virginia, and I get to just sit and listen to him speak and that's probably one of the best things about Command Presence is getting to sit and listen to other people speak. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It is yeah, and I'll tell you, I've sat through I don't know how many EQ classes over my career given by the Bureau of Prisons. They told me about emotional intelligence, what I needed, and I sat through Miles's and it was two hours, that's all it was. It was a little two-hour class and he said if you understand this, it's a power skill for you. And when I walked out of there I believed it. Miles has the ability to take and he loves this, he loves emotional intelligence and that whole area there. But he takes that and he makes it personal. He lets you understand that everything you touch in life is part of that. It's not just something you bring out when it happens. No, you live it. He's so excited about it, it makes you excited. I was just jittery when I walked out.
Speaker 2:Looking for a Coca-Cola in the machine. You know, it's one of those things and I would throw it out to your listeners. One of the problems about being inside a training company is that it's its own type of tunnel vision. Yeah, and so I would request from your listeners here that, man, if you see a place where training is needed and it's not being provided at a, not only from a delivery standpoint, but from a research standpoint, at a in this profession, where they need to be served, we want it to be relevant and, mike, you know this man we want people to be able to take what they hear in a classroom today and apply it on their next shift, because if it doesn't change what they do or how they do it, or how they think, then did we really accomplish anything?
Speaker 1:Right, you're absolutely right. And the report writing class that was an example. They came to us and they said I've got correctional officers that are dealing with this and they're going to do depositions. Can we put together a class and command presence? Did we picked it up? It's going to be a great class for corrections. More than just there. Bring the ideas.
Speaker 1:I just did that survey on LinkedIn. That's kind of what I was trying to find out. What are people looking for? What is the training that they need the most? They need the most Some of the questions I asked on there and it's been going through my mind does the training you're receiving make you feel safer at work? That's something for you know. We talk about retention and recruitment. If you're sending rookies and I'm sure law enforcement is the same way, but I know in corrections it's scary you walk in there, the door slams, it's dark, you're surrounded by people that you possibly don't understand unless you grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood. Do you feel safe? Do you feel like you have the tools you need to go do your job when the time comes? And if you don't, then somebody's failing training, and that's what I want to bring.
Speaker 2:Well, Mike, you said something to me, man, that I had to think about for a few days. You were telling me that a lot of people in a correctional environment will arm themselves when they feel unsafe. The inmates will.
Speaker 2:And staff too. Yeah, and so. But that's the whole thing. When people don't feel prepared, if they're constantly concerned with their own safety, then bad things are likely to happen, because we start thinking with the amygdala and reacting with the amygdala than anything else. And that's where training and leadership come in, and if we do those two things well, everybody's going to be safer.
Speaker 1:Yeah absolutely so kind of the, I guess. To finish off here, I know one of the and I want to touch on this because it's been so popular, even though it's not in corrections your guys' FTO classes that you've been doing. Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:So I've been to two FTO schools. I've been to two FTO schools. I've been to a supervising and FTO school as part of my training when I was active, and kudos to Paul Biesinger who was the primary architect behind this. How goofy is it? We'll go with goofy because that's less judgmental how goofy is it in law enforcement that we start grading people in the FTO program on things in which they haven't been trained yet? You don't do it in the medical profession. You know, even our friends, the hose jockeys, the second responders they don't do it. You know what I'm saying. But we do it.
Speaker 2:And so Paul put together this program that we call the CTE and it's a coach train then evaluate. Let's give our people, our brand new people, all the tools that they need to succeed, and our premise is that people should earn their way out of the program. They're given every tool. If they don't make it, then it's on them, and it has just been such a blast watching. We just delivered it last week out in Lansing Michigan. We've got several agencies there that are adopting it as an agency. But we started out the program talking about how hard it is to get people to work in this profession. So if we recognize how hard it is to get people in, why don't we set them up so that we can hold on to them? Not just hold on to them for the sake of holding on to them, but set them up for success, so that we're safer, they're safer, and the community is safer, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I want to thank you for passing my name on to John. I love being part of this team. It's been a fun year. I'm excited about where we're going. I'm excited, I know both sides of the corrections and law enforcement. We've got new stuff playing, we've got classes coming up and I'll put, I'll put all that in the notes, um, uh, so that you know who to contact. But if you, like Michael said, if you just want to talk to one of us and you've got this idea, give us a call and, uh, let's talk about it. It may be a class we can develop. It may be part of a class we already offer, um, but, uh, yeah, thank you for letting me be part of this, thank John and all the other instructors for letting me be part of this, and thank you for coming on here and and helping me highlight what we're doing here, and I appreciate it well, brother, I appreciate you having me on and and thank you for your, your service.
Speaker 2:uh, the work that you've done, it has mattered, and the beautiful thing is man is it continues to matter, and so I can't thank you enough for that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I appreciate you and I'll talk at you soon. All right, brother, Take care, have a great day. I would like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors that make the Prison Officer Podcast possible. Omni RTLS is a company that I've been working with for the last year. I am proud to be part of this team of correctional professionals who have developed the best real-time locating system on the market today. With Omni's real-time location technology, you automatically know the accurate locations and interactions of all inmates, staff and assets anywhere in your correctional facility, and you have this information in real time. Omni is cutting-edge software for today's jails and prisons. It is the only way to monitor every square inch of your facility while still being PREA compliant. Go to wwwomnirtlscom for more information and to make your facility safer today. That's wwwomnirtlscom.
