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The Prison Officer Podcast
The Prison Officer Podcast is a place where prison officers and correctional staff share their experiences, discuss leadership, cope with stress, and learn survival strategies for one of the toughest careers out there. Hosted by Michael Cantrell, this podcast delves into the lives, dreams, and challenges faced by those who work inside the walls of our nation’s prisons. It features interviews, insights, and discussions related to the unique and demanding world of corrections. Whether it’s overcoming difficult leaders, understanding rehabilitation, or addressing misconceptions about incarcerated populations, the Prison Officer Podcast provides valuable perspectives from professionals in the field.
The Prison Officer Podcast
90: From Baseball Dreams to Correctional Teams - Interview w/Adam Dennis
Meet Adam Dennis, a 28-year law enforcement/corrections veteran, who shares his early days, influenced by his father's advice and his brother's positive experiences, as he navigates through a career filled with challenges and unexpected culture shocks. From playing college baseball to earning a criminology degree, Adam's journey is inspiring and eye-opening.
Adam helps uncover the inner workings of specialized correctional teams, as he delves into the importance of units like CERT and HNT teams. He emphasizes the camaraderie, accountability, and professionalism that these roles demand, along with the leadership qualities that can make or break a team. Adam illustrates how trust, delegation, and high standards in training are crucial for effective team dynamics. His stories bring to life the intense and often unseen world of correctional facilities, shedding light on the importance of leadership and team cohesion.
To contact Adam:
serteou23@gmail.com
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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of the Pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. With the ability to transition quickly from area saturation to direct impact with the non-lethal PAVA projectiles. Pepperball provides me with a range of non-lethal options for cell extractions involving non-compliant inmates and when the use of force is over, decontamination is easy with no oily residue on the walls or floors. To learn more about Pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the show notes below. Pepperball is the safer option first. Well, welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast.
Speaker 1:Today I'm really excited to have a new guest, adam Dennis. He's a 28-year veteran of law enforcement, served 22 years with California's state hostage rescue teams. His SWAT HRT assignments included assault leader, tactical element leader and team commander. He served for 10 years in the emergency operations unit as the lieutenant responsible for the training and certification of over 400 hostage rescue teams. Those members were spread across 19 teams throughout the state of California. In addition, he spent 10 years with the DOJ Trident and Narcotics Task Force and was responsible for certifying team members as instructors in tactical firearm certifications, entry operations and high risk warrants and hostage rescue operations. Holds certifications in OC, lsdds, chemical agents, less lethal munitions. He's very well-rounded in the training, I am sure, so I'm excited to talk to him today.
Speaker 1:Before we get there, I want to give a shout out to Liam McGee, who he's one of our listeners and he reached out to me and said I had this guy in class. You got to get him on the podcast. I want to hear his stories. So Liam's the one that kind of brought us together here. So how are you doing today, adam? I'm doing great. Sounds like an exciting career there, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was fortunate, you know, I was always around good people.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Well, if you've listened to the podcast, I always like to start at the beginning, so kind of walk me through where you grew up at and how that was with high school and sports and that type of stuff.
Speaker 2:Okay, I grew up in a little town up in the Sierra Nevada mountains called Sonora, California, I'd say in the mountains. It was a foothill community about oh, we're probably probably about 80 miles a little bit south and a little bit west of lake tahoe okay, a little community yeah, my mom and dad uh a very strong christian, so we went to a christian elementary school and a christian high school, a small high school.
Speaker 2:So, uh, I have an identical twin brother, um, and we, we basically played uh soccer, uh basketball and baseball because they needed people right and with an identical twin. You probably played pranks on people only when we were younger it only happened once and dad found out, and that was the end of that oh, that was the end of that, oh yeah okay, so where'd you go after high school?
Speaker 2:I went to a? Uh christian college down in uh the san fernando valley, just outside of magic mountain, a town called new hall, california. Uh, the college is called masters college, so okay didn't, didn't quite get the degree. I went down more than anything to play a little college baseball, non-scholarship college baseball, so okay I was down there for, I think, two and a half years yeah, what was your major besides baseball? Criminology.
Speaker 1:Criminology was my major yeah so you know you were going to go into criminology no, I, I, to be perfectly honest with you.
Speaker 2:My dad um worked for, uh, the california department of of Transportation for many, many, many years. I retired as a supervisor after 33 years, but once we're getting done with college he just kind of encouraged us to look for a state job for the retirement. That was his big thing, so we would have a good retirement. The Department of Transportation was not really hiring and I don't want to go down, they were hiring but anyway. But corrections was starting to boom and had a friend, an acquaintance and plus our older brother had just got into corrections. He loved it. He said it's a great job. What year is this? This would have been, uh, I went through the correctionals academy in 1991 okay, well, you entered corrections.
Speaker 1:I came in in the first of 1992, so, okay, yeah, yeah, we've been doing this almost as long. So your brother went into and he came back with good reports.
Speaker 2:My twin brother actually got hired about six months before me.
Speaker 1:Okay. Had you ever thought about corrections before that? Did you know what prison and jail?
Speaker 2:was, Didn't have any idea what it was, Didn't realize the culture shock that I was going to be exposed to, as you well know. Yeah, I didn't know any of that, Didn't know nothing about it. I just at the time, the starting payout there was really good and to this day it's really good, and you know just really didn't have a plan. I knew that I was going to try it. I told myself, if I don't like it, then maybe I'll I'll do something else. But I enjoyed it from the very first day.
Speaker 1:So, going to a Christian school, do you think you were a I don't know a little bit at a disadvantage as far? As you probably didn't have any gangs in your school. You probably didn't have much criminality running around.
Speaker 2:And that's exactly right. Okay, exactly right. And we grew up in the town we grew up in with 150 people. Oh wow, no gangs or anything up there either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're learning on the run when you walk through the door. Yes, yes. So tell me about that first time the door slams and tell me about that first year.
Speaker 2:I have a really funny story about my first day. I had an inmate walk up to me. He was from the Rolling 90s Crips in Los Angeles, california, and at the time when I started the inmates were still allowed to have weight piles and whatnot. So I'm sure you can attest to this. It's amazing how big they got. You know lifting their weights yeah people don't realize.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was probably 6'2" and as far as his upper body went, there wasn't a bodybuilder around that had anything on him. I mean he was a giant man. And he said he looked at my name tag and he said Dennis. I said yes, sir. He said new guy. I said yes, sir. He said what would you do if I decide I'm going to put my hands on you right now? I said I'm going to hold on for dear life and when my partners get here you're going to regret that decision. And he looked me in the eyes and he said you're going to get along just fine.
Speaker 1:Yep Good answer.
Speaker 2:Just a little test first day Sure, yeah, see where it stood. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember kind of a similar thing and I know that the other officers were back watching us new group, you know but they walked up and they got in this one guy's face and you know they were saying things to him and he got all worked up and he's emotional. And of you know they were saying things to him and he got all worked up and he's emotional and of course they just blew him up, that one officer. They just blew him up and uh, then he walks over to me. He goes what's your name? I said Cantrell, that's all I said. You know the other guy's like you don't need to know my name, and that was it. You know he moved on to the show off or you don't have to show how bad you are, no.
Speaker 1:Which is a thing that rookies often do.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yeah. So you know, the first year was just, you know, as you well know, a big learning curve. The California DOC prisons generally, a normal-sized prison will have three facilities and 1100 beds on those facilities. So, um, I think, uh, people that have never been inside the prison system don't realize how number outnumbered you really are. Um, we were fortunate um most not all some of the older prisons don't, but most of the modern prisons in california, not too many places where you don't have a tower or gun coverage above you, um inside, outside. So that's always an advantage. But you know it was a big learning curve.
Speaker 2:Um, I met a lot of good people that first year, Um, and then I met um a couple of uh, uh correctional officers, and that's how my um that that referred to there was a group that referred to them as prison guards. They didn't want to be called correctional officers and you know we were sworn police officers in the state. I just thought it was kind of a in in my heart it was kind of a derogatory term. I know some people like to be called prison guards, but I just, I just thought it kind of took away um from the profession that we were involved in. You know, sure and I had plenty of them at shift change would just throw their keys down the table and just say good luck, not give me any advice. What's going on in the pod? What's going on in the unit? Anything I need to know? Here's your keys.
Speaker 2:See you tomorrow, youngster, you know and I told myself, if I ever get to the point where I'm a senior person, I was going to help out everybody that asked me anything as best as I could. Yeah, and that's how I was raised.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely yeah, and I don't know I think you mentioned it the camaraderie that I felt immediately. Of course you do, because there's nothing like the first time that you end up on the bottom of a pile or fighting an inmate and 20 people show up to help you. Most people have never experienced that before in their life. You know, I got in a fight in like sixth grade, got beat up by an eighth grader and all my friends ran. You know the other way and then you come inside and it's like this you know it's camaraderie they care for you, they care about you. Maybe not personally, maybe not the person you are deep inside, but they do care. As another officer.
Speaker 1:And that's something that takes a little bit to get used to.
Speaker 2:And I think that's a great point. You know, we had, thank God, by the time I got in we were getting a lot more sophisticated. We had personal alarm devices that would, you know, have a blue light flashing and a siren on, you know, on whatever building we might be in, and it was just good to know that when you hit that you knew people were coming. Without a doubt there was people coming, and so if I was like, say, a search and escort officer or a yard officer, you know, when a blue light went off in a building, no one was going to keep me from getting there because I knew people needed assistance. You know, anyway, you do get a closeness in a brotherhood because you're outnumbered right, I mean vastly outnumbered.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's nobody else to help you, it's just the people inside. Yep, yeah, so at some point you discovered the teams? I guess yes, so tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Okay, a little background about the teams. I'm sure a lot of your listeners and yourself remember the 1980 New Mexico riot where they lost basically the entire prison and it ended up a bunch of National Guards and State Patrol and finally Russia prison and it was a really bad situation and a lot of people lost their lives. So the governor at the time I want to say McCarthy, but don't quote me on that asked the director of corrections if this happens to one of my prisons, prisons, do we have people that can handle it? And he said no. And he said, okay, you got six months. I want a plan, I want teams stationed at every prison that will have the capability whether it's a hostage rescue, uh, a giant incident where you know the regular staff on duty can't handle. I want people that are professionally trained to handle that. So that's kind of how it started and that was around 1983.
Speaker 2:So by the time I got, I tried out for the team in 1996, my twin brother was already a team member and he was the one that kind of told me hey, you got to do this, you have the right personality for it, um, and I at first, you know, I wasn't too sure about it, um, but he kept on me and he said you're going to love it. He said you said you think it's a brotherhood out there way to get on this team, um, and so, uh, you know, I went to tryouts and it's a long, hard day, um. There there's no hazing involved, but they do test your commitment. There's a lot of commitment tests during that day. Are you going to quit? Are you going to keep going, no matter how tired you are? Um, and a lot of other good tests. Can you? Can you stay calm? Can you keep a clear mind? Can you make proper decisions that need to be made?
Speaker 2:So I was fortunate, um, to pass tryouts. Um had a, took a shower, got our class aides on then and then we had to have an interview with the commander, assistant commander and the senior instructors on the team and I was fortunate, very fortunate, looking back, that they saw something in me that they thought would make a good team member and it really changed the whole trajectory of my career that day In California, even though we're prison-based before the last 10 years, when I went out to oversee the teams and whatnot, we got called out of the prison all the time A lot more now than back then, because now they're really helping local law enforcement uh, almost on a daily basis. One of the 19 teams is probably out doing something, a warrant or um, assisting with uh uh gang sweeps in in Fresno on a Friday, saturday night.
Speaker 1:So well, you guys are your, your actual peace officers when you graduate from the academy. So that makes a big difference for those agencies that have that. You know some places they don't have that as a correctional officer so they're not spending much time outside.
Speaker 2:I found out it just differs from state to state. You never know Like Ohio was very much so based along the lines that we were out in California. So it's just on a state-by-state basis and we were fortunate enough to be peace officers and if we got a mutual aid request, our color of authority immediately transferred to the PD or the sheriff's department that asked us to come with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, when rookies ask me, they'll say you know what's a piece of advice? Well, one of the pieces of advice I always give them is if you can get on a team, I don't care what team, I don't care if it's negotiations, I don't care if it's HRT, cert, whatever If you can get on a team, because not only the camaraderie, but now you have a group of people that hold you accountable right, exactly.
Speaker 1:You have access to training that you won't have, so you're going to be one of the more trained officers when stuff hits and equipment. Possibly even Tell me about some of that. I mean, do you look at that? The same for rookies when they're coming in? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know we always looked at especially when I got started getting up toward the command level, making decisions or helping the commander make a decision before I was a commander, you know we weren't one for tryouts. We weren't necessarily looking for the fastest, biggest, strongest people. You know we were looking for someone that was a consummate professional, that had zero arrogance and wanted to do the job for all the right reasons, you know, and so we were looking at people and what we would tell them is this hey, listen, you get on a specialized team.
Speaker 2:There could come a day in your career it might or it might not, but there could come a day in your career where the only hope that your fellow correctional officers ever have of coming home is going to be you sure. And I said that's, that's a big commitment that you're making. That's a big commitment. So, um, yeah, I would say, and I agree with you, whether it's a cert team, a cell extraction team, riot control team, a negotiator, get on a team if you're so inclined and you want to do something extra, do something beyond just going in for eight hours and going home. And it's not for everyone, but I would encourage people that if that's your personality, then seek those people out, ask them questions, sure, see what they think about being on those teams, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And some of them are. I know the Bureau of Prisons has a crisis support team, which is people who just walk around and, you know, talk after we have an incident or something. You got the negotiation teams, so I think you could find a spot somewhere if you look hard enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I know, at one point you made a team leader, so tell me about what it's like being a team leader. What was your leadership style at that point?
Speaker 2:in your career, my leadership style was to put good people in charge of each squad that I could trust. And they knew we had an annual training plan. Um, they, they could look at it. They knew that when our training was coming up, what we're going to be training on, um, they would let me know. Um, hey, we're going to be teaching this class. Um, uh, rob Sharky is going to teach this part of it. Phil Jensen is going to teach this part of it. Um, and I'd let them do their job, because I wouldn't have picked them for that job if I didn't trust them. So, you know, and they always reported back to me on how training and I would go around and watch all the trainings, of course, by then, and still, I would still run, jump and shoot with them and all that good stuff. Because I made a commitment that, no matter where I went, if I couldn't do the qualifications, the minimum qualifications with guys I was asking to do it, then I wasn't going to, I was going to step down immediately. So sure, and all the teams were that way.
Speaker 2:But one of the biggest parts is when you, when you become, you know, and that position is the liaison to the chief deputy warden in the ward. And you know, and I told my guys, I don't care what they ask us to do, we're going to do it and we're going to be professional about it. I don't care if they need us to go put sandbags to keep water from coming into prison, whatever, whatever the mission is, care if they need us to go put sandbags to keep water from coming into prison, whatever, whatever the mission is. Um, and I told them you know, I don't want you to get in with any of your line supervisors or any of that. If, if any of that happens and you come talk to me, um, I'm the person that will go talk to them and you know, and we'll work it out. So, and you know, so I was a good buffer for them and now you know that was. I felt part of my responsibility was being a buffer for them, absolutely.
Speaker 1:When it came to administration. Yeah, Take that off their shoulders and let them do their job.
Speaker 2:Let them do their job.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah. Another thing you mentioned, uh, just a second ago, was you used to go around and watch the training and, uh, I was teaching a class last week. I teach for command presence and I teach leading when it hits the fan, which is for first line supervisors decisions that you make. And one of the discussions we got into was know your team's capabilities, how often do you go out and watch what they can do? Because, just like that governor, you know when. When he came back and he said do you have people in place that can do that? Well, thank God that the director gave him an honest answer no, I don't. There's a lot of administrators out there that think I've got a cert team so I can put them in whatever instance there is, and that's just not true. It takes training, it takes commitment. Talk to me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, we were part-time. So you know, and I remember my commander telling me, adam, the easiest thing that you will ever do for this job is to stay in elite physical condition.
Speaker 2:He said it makes all the other stuff that's harder a little bit easier when you're doing it. So, um, and you know and I took that to heart Um, and we would have to do a lot of that on our own time. You know we weren't getting paid for it. You know, going out for a run after work or run before work, um, hitting the weight room, you know, on our own time in it, um, it, I would tell people that do have spouses out there that if you're going to decide to go down that road, you need to sit down and have an honest conversation with them.
Speaker 2:I do this, but there there's going to be some times where I'm going to have to be out going to the gym, I'm going to have to go for a run, and there's going to be some times, at the most inconvenient time it could ever be, where my pager I had pagers back then or my cell phone later on is going to go off and no matter what I'm doing, I have to respond and that's the conversation. I really challenge young correctional staff if they're going to get on a specialized team, just have that conversation with the spouse. It can save a lot of miscommunication and heartache later on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a great support.
Speaker 1:I had a great wife who put up with a lot when, I was on the canine unit. You know we'd get called out and escape. She wouldn't know where I was for two, maybe three days. I'm in the woods there's no phones. We didn't have a phone everywhere back then, you know, so she'd just sit home and worry or watch the news. So no, that's absolutely right, yeah I haven't talked with them, because they're going to be invested in your time on the team yes, they are wow and you need their support to do it.
Speaker 1:You need their support, yeah so tell me, as a leader, what was one of the toughest decisions that you had to make during that time. Anything stand out.
Speaker 2:I didn't have to make too many tough decisions. You know, one of the toughest things was if we were running a tryout and there was a lot of good people they gave everything they had at the tryout, but it just they, they, they weren't going to be capable of doing what needed to be done. Um, some of them were friends of mine.
Speaker 2:you know that I worked with on the line with um and that was always tough um yeah, and there was a couple of times where um one time in particular where at the time this decision was made, I was assistant and I had a great commander and me and him kind of had to make a decision about telling someone that they couldn't be on the team no more, and that was tough. But you know, me and him, we had a long talk about it and he said this is hard for me, adam, what do you think? I said, well, I mean it is hard. But I said you know, we just got to look at the team as a whole, not the individual. You know, we've got to make this decision for the team.
Speaker 2:And and there was other team members, um, at the time um didn't quite, uh, understand that, but they came around later on, um, when all the facts came out about, it Right. Other than that I the hardest decisions I made was later on, when I started running. I had oversight to run in the schools. I had to make some pretty tough decisions then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, which job was that? Is that the emergency operations?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I started going down. Um, we would run, uh, four to six schools a year a basic SWAT, which was nine days, and then an advanced hostage rescue school, which was another nine days, generally about six months apart. But throughout the year we would run maybe a sniper school. We'd get input from the team. Say what school do we need the most right now for attrition? It might be a tactical firearms instructor school. It might be an entry operations instructor school for instructors. So on a good year we'd run four to six courses a year and I was, very fortunate, A really good team member of mine.
Speaker 2:He ended up getting a job to oversee the teams and he immediately asked me to start coming down as an instructor and that was a big commitment because he wanted me at all the schools and, um, you know they're each nine days. We get down there a couple days early make sure the base is all set up for us. So that's a lot of time away from home, but it was something. You know. I'd already been fortunate at the help and I was teaching at the team. You know had been through just about all the schools at that point but I really fell in love with teaching new operators. So when he asked me if I'd be willing to come down, I was. I was pretty over the top excited about coming down, but it was for all the right reasons. It wasn't about me, you know. I wanted to. I wanted to help. We had a really good thing going. I wanted to keep it going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely A little bit of legacy there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of good people came before so we felt like we owed it to them. All the people that fought all the fights to keep the team they. At one time, before I got on the teams, there was a big movement, pretty hype, in the department to get rid of the teams. They thought it was a waste of money and resources. And a lot of good people that were in charge of the program fought a good fight and were able to convince the decision makers hey, you need us, you're going to need us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, for those listening, I think every agency goes through that at one time or another. You know you get really good teams, you're doing your job, things are not happening, so they decide, oh, this is a place we can spend money. And then, as soon as they start backing off on training, backing off on teams, when things go to shit and now we need them back, so yeah, I think every agency goes through that. I think so. Um, let's talk a little bit about california. I had a ron on here in episode 37. He retired from san quentin, but you know, california is its own. Is it still the second largest system behind texas?
Speaker 2:as far as I know, it is I know they closed couple of prisons but at one time when I was working we always covered around 100,000 people incarcerated or something like that if I remember right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's about where you're at now. I always the thing I ran into a few years back when I was working for the BOP. The budget for California is $18.1 billion for CDCR, the Bureau of Prisons. The federal side of that, or side of corrections, is $8.1 billion. So it really talks to the amount of money that's poured into the CDCR out there. Yes, but you guys have gang problems. It started out there. I mean, that's the beginning of prison. Gangs was in the California prisons. So you deal with it violence and stuff at a, I think, just at a different level. There's more of them out there.
Speaker 2:Tell me a little bit about what you saw there with uh, I really got into gangs, um, and I was fortunate, uh, enough to, um, I end up being a sergeant, uh, running the gang investigations unit at the prison that I was at at the time. Okay, um, so you know, and I had, up until that point, I'd really educated myself. Um, I was a yard officer, search and escort officer before I made sergeant. I would go around having conversations with serenios and asking about where they grew up Well, what neighborhood is that? So I actually made a binder and had all the little acronyms that they would tattoo on them that would signify what part of LA or San Diego or San Gabriel Valley they were from. So I really got really knowledgeable in that and it really helped me on the yard because I could talk to them and if they're, you know, say their shirts are off on a summer day, I could look at them and say, oh, hey, you're from La Puente or you're from Bridgetown. Look at him and say, oh, hey, you're from La Puente or you're from Bridgetown, you know you're. Hey, you're from White Fence, and it was a way to open up a conversation. So they're like, wow, he does know where we're from, you know.
Speaker 2:So I was fortunate enough to end up being the gang investigator for the prison. Actually, I think I might have misspoke. I wasn't a sergeant, but you had two sergeants in I guess you would call it institutional investigations unit. Sure Investigated all things and they my one sergeant had asked me to come in and be the head gang investigator for the prison. You know, and I really enjoyed that job, it wasn't a level. I wasn't at a maximum security prison at the time. We had a level one, a level two and then a level three yard and most of the stuff went down on the level two yard. There was so many of them. It was an open dorm setting, you know, 1100 people out on the yard and that's where all the big, the big incidents went down was on that yard, um.
Speaker 2:But uh, you know, california um is very unique, um, um, because we have, you know, gangs that basically started back in the you know 60s um, I guess around the 60s um, and I heard your podcast. You know, uh, I think it was ron, was it ron? From san clint, yeah, yeah, and he basically gave a good history of that why they started. You know a lot of mostly started as protection groups and it just kind of morphed after that. Um, um. You know, the thing that really helped us with the prison gangs was when they started opening the SHU units up. But since I've retired, they've pretty much emptied the SHU units out.
Speaker 2:A lot of those guys are out walking around now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've got to help a lot of people that don't know what they're doing in politics, who've decided restrictive housing is mean because they don't understand what it does. But you bring up a great point and I want to back up to this because you talked about how you walked out on the yard and you talked to these guys and when I go inside these days and look around and investigations especially, I see a lot of people who are counting on reading letters and listening to the phone. You know they're, they're watching the cameras. Cameras are the big thing. I can see everything and I know everything. If I watch the cameras and I'm going to argue that you don't you know we. We were taught to get out there and talk to them, to watch them, to be part of that yard. That yard should not be left alone. You get the information by those inmates know you and you get to know them. So talk to me more about that. I love that you brought that up.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I made a point before I got into the gang unit, when I was working on the yards. Was was hey, I want to, and I don't like using the name shot caller. I, I, um, I like to think of more as, um, you know, the og people, um, they do, they have the ability to make calls, sure, um, but I got to know who was running everything right. And so a perfect example is, say, if a Norteno disrespected one of the correctional officers and it was a correctional officer, I knew that wasn't blowing it out of proportion or anything like that Instead of going and finding that young guy and maybe getting in a confrontation with him, I would go talk to all. I don't want to say his name because he's out now and he's doing really good I've heard, but anyway, I'll just say his name was Speedy, a long, long time Norteno. When he would come out dressed to the nines shoes, polished, everything, pressed, and he really carried himself very, very respectful, and you know me and him had a good rapport, and I remember him telling me hey, listen, you know, you've always been so respectful to me and our guys. He said, if you ever have a problem with any of my people before he has to get locked up or something. If you come talk to me, just give me a chance, and if you still got locking up, I understand that.
Speaker 2:So this particular youngster, you know, 21 years old, and he really said a really derogatory thing to a female correctional officer and she was very upset about it. She came to me right away because she knows I've been on. At the time I think I'd been working that yard as either search and escort or officer for probably 12 years, so I really knew everyone on the yard, um. So I went down and talked to this guy and I said hey, um, this is what happened. I believe her um, uh, here's what I would like to see. I would like to see him, um, apologize to her. Sure, um, if he can't do that, then we'll have to go down a different road. But I know he's young, he just got here, can you talk to him? He said I'll talk to him.
Speaker 2:Half hour later, um met us in the sergeant's office and this kid had been crying. I don't know what he did to him, but um and he, I'm sorry, that's not how the Nortainers on this yard conduct ourselves. I'm trying to get used to prison life, you know, and just having a bad day, and you know, because you don't know what's affecting them that day. Maybe they got a bad call from their mom, a bad call from their girlfriend, you don't know. Sure, and he I could tell he was sincere, he was, he was truly sincere about it. So, you know, I think the communication aspect and showing them respect, I used to tell them all listen, you'll have nothing but 100 respect for me until you don't give it to me, and then we're going to go down an entirely different road. Um, but I'm sure you saw this, um, the one thing that really bothered me about, um, uh, some people in corrections, um, you know, they thought the badge was six foot tall and and they could just go around being a bully you know, now, you didn't see a lot of that on the level four maximum security yards, because you just wouldn't get away with it yeah, they get weeded
Speaker 2:out pretty quick, yeah, on some of the lower yards, and what they have to tell everybody. Hey, listen, yeah, these guys are on a level two yard trying to get a level one yard so they can go be a firefighter. But if you look at their history, they've worked their way down from maximum security yards so they've been on those heavy yards. You know sure, um, and even if an old sereno wasn't hasn't been recognized by us as being part of the mexican mafia. I guarantee you he had cousins, um, and I guarantee you he had people from his neighborhood that were were part of his little clique, and they all know each other they all know each other.
Speaker 2:You know. So the respect thing and the way you carry yourself, and uh, and I just found out the more I talked to him, interested in how their lives were when they weren't locked up, would ask him how things are going on the yard.
Speaker 2:How is it going? Is there any issues? You know, is anything bothering you? And I was sincere about that because you know there would be 11 of us on yard and they'd be letting out 1100 inmates Right. So you had to have that communication skill and you know they knew where I stood and. I knew where they stood, but at the same time, that does not mean that you cannot show compassion for people as long as they know. This is not weakness. This is just me asking how you are. You know, sure.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, you know, um, you'll see corrections, people, and they talk about it and they'll sit through the class, you know, when they're learning leadership, and the number one thing that you need as a leader is influence, and to me, that's what some of what I communication Absolutely. But you were going to the yard to find the person that had influence with other inmates. You were staying involved with them so that you could have influence, and you're absolutely right. Too many people think that you wait till the situation happens, that you wait till the situation happens. Well, if you haven't developed a, you know, a discourse or influence with that inmate before that moment, you're not going to get it while they're blowed up and, you know, hitting on the door or whatever. So I think we need to get away from being so worried about some of those words. Influence is a good word. If you're leading inmates, you have to have influence with yeah, they're not going to listen to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, then we're going to have chaos. It's just real quick. One of the you know you talk about um, communication with the, and knowing the influence and and them having enough respect for you to come with a problem to you, knowing that you're not going to blow the problem out of proportion. You're going to deal with it respectfully, the right way. Yeah, there's a guy I'll call him cj. He was from the bay area. I'm a 415 gang member, um, big guy, um, he had salt and pepper braided hair, so he was definitely an og but still in tremendous shape, and me and him had a great respect for each other. Um, um and we had, we had a really good rapport and um, uh, I'll never forget.
Speaker 2:Uh, the yard had only been opened up after dinner for maybe half hour and uh, he came down to the sergeant's office and he, he told the sergeant hey, I need to talk to Dennis Um, and the sergeant knew him, so he knew it was serious. So I went outside and I said what's up? Well, him and Speedy, both um, wanted to talk to me and I said, hey, what's up? Guys, I lived in the same dorm, so the dorm for 36 beds, right um, and they're secured by two steel doors on each end, um concrete walls. And um, they said, hey, man, that guy. They moved in in the dorm and I said I I didn't look at the the movement after dinner.
Speaker 2:Well, when he came in the dorm, he basically told he's a white guy, um, skinhead from, uh, I want to say san bernardo, california. And he basically told I'm not going to be living with no ends and no farmers and kind of a derogatory term to the nortanians. Well, sure, cj um and uh, two of his guys had this guy in the bathroom with a shank. They were going to kill him. And cj said stop everybody, stop what you're doing. Let's get dennis involved. Um, he'll get this guy out of this dorm, right, and they're, and even the youngsters like, are you sure? And he goes if I ask him to. Yes, I'm going to tell him exactly what's going on, because he knew.
Speaker 2:And so here I told him okay, I'm going to move him, all right nope I'll put him back down in a dorm with Serrano's instead of Norteno's, but here's what you're going to do for me. He said what I'm going to do for you. I said as soon as I lock the front door after he leaves, I want that weapon to come out the window of the back door, out on the tier. Are we understood? And he said absolutely understood, adam. Are we understood? And he said absolutely understood, adam. I said okay, you were honest with me. We'll call it even at that point. Um, I can get a weapon off the yard and no one's gonna die. It was all because they knew me. They would. They knew that I wasn't gonna be like charging in there, tearing up the dorm, you know, yeah if you had never talked to them before that moment.
Speaker 1:You had no, you had no way to talk to them at that moment. Yeah, they wouldn't came at, they wouldn't came to talk to me.
Speaker 2:You know, who knows what would happen that night.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah we need more of that these days kind of unfortunate.
Speaker 2:Uh, I want to. It's one of my fondest memories because I thought you know I I did a lot of hard work, you know, building that respect and rapport with those influencers um to have them come through with a major issue, you know, and I was going to handle it the right way.
Speaker 2:And you know, and I did it the right way, you know, I let the sergeant know what was going on and told him here was my plan. What do you think he goes? That's perfect, adam. If you can make that happen, that would be great, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people that don't know corrections, not those that work in it, but the people on the outside. But most of those inmates, except for the violent ones, we've usually got them at really high institutions. Most of those inmates want to do their time quietly. They want to do it.
Speaker 2:They want to go out.
Speaker 1:They want to get their rec, they want to get their education, and when people like that show up, you know, if they did have to stab him or something like that, it would shut down the whole institution, nobody's done anything for a day.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, I think that's one of the misconceptions out there yeah, and you know that, um, for the most part, the, the hispanics control most of the drug trafficking in california prisons. Um, and they're the last ones that want to see something go down, especially on the lower level yards, because if they get locked down there's no one coming in to visit and it just stops the whole flow of money and everything.
Speaker 1:It's like a small business.
Speaker 2:You know, most people are like what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's why it's like a small business in the pandemic. Yes, so how many years did you stay with California? 28 years, 28 years?
Speaker 2:Wow yeah, my last 10, 18. I was on the inside and then I was very fortunate enough you know I've been going down as an instructor and my good buddy Doug, promoted to the SSU unit, which is another law enforcement arm in corrections. All special agents and his sergeant had promoted to lieutenant Chris and Chris said, hey, I want you to interview for the job. I'd really like you to start. And then that was another thing I really had to think about because that was going to be a huge commitment. I had to move down to Sacramento and that's where the office was at, going to be gone a lot. And you know I thought, I thought long and hard about it, but I made a decision. You know, like anything long and hard about it, but I made a decision. You know, like anything else, once I made it I was going to be committed to it and this is the task force right the Department of Justice task force.
Speaker 2:So the emergency operations unit. They oversee several things. They oversee all the guns and bullets in the prison. But me, when I promoted as a sergeant with chris and then when chris left, I promote to lieutenant tim came with me. Our job was we over? We had oversight over the training assessment and, uh, certification okay, the members that were coming down to our schools to be certified members so along with that.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I got up there and a lot of the guys, like the ssu guys, the fusion apprehension people, um, almost all of them have come out of corrections um doing all the street stuff. Um, they uh we started going out and helping um, uh, one of the doj funded narcotics task force teams, uh, okay, later, later on they're called. Right now they were a different name now but I don't want to put that name out because there's some stuff that went down. Anyway, that's fine. So, whenever you know, like any task force, they had like a core of dudes. That that's all they did, task force members.
Speaker 2:But then when we would start working a case, say, a hit was coming up or a warrant here, whatever we got it, we'd have to go down and take down a marijuana grow, sure, um, so we'd get involved. If they needed some of the team guys to enhance our numbers, um, it would go through me and my captain. Yeah, well, how many do you need? What can we do to assist? Whatever you know, whatever it is. So, um, wore a lot of hats the last 10 years, but it was fun, it was a good time, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you're kind of like me. You haven't done a real good job of retiring because from what I hear, you're still teaching. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know I was, uh, um, when I was doing all the team stuff, um, you know when we'd run our school. You know we were such a big organization, you know. Know, the biggest thing we fought was attrition. You know, when you got 424 spots statewide, um, you know when we would run, uh, the basic SWAT school, um, you know we, we could have as many as 65 people going through it. Um, yeah, so, um, that, you know that was the. The one thing that we had to fight down there was attrition. Um, and uh, you know it was a.
Speaker 2:Not only was I, you know, running the school, but you know, one thing I did was, you know I had a core of instructors that would come out of the prisons. You know a lot of them, team commanders themselves or, um, senior guys that would come down, you know, as the instructors. Sure, and you know my job was I'll keep the make sure we got the base lined up you guys come down and everyone knew who they were going to be, what they were going to be teaching. We would set up to where an instructor was going to be a squad leader, because they were coming down to be operators. I don't want you to have to in no leadership or anything like that. You're coming down and learn to be an operator, regardless of what the mission is.
Speaker 2:Um, smart. So that was a big learning experience for me. Um, I you know cause. As an instructor I was in charge of this block of instruction, or running a squad, um. But then when I got to the position of Sergeant, and then even more so when I became the lieutenant, whatever happened down there the buck stopped with me. But I had a good captain, I had a good chief and they were good administrators and they were like we don't care what happens, just make sure we hear it from you before we get blindsided. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's usually.
Speaker 2:I'm on the sidetrack from your last question, so if you need to ask it, again.
Speaker 1:No, it's okay. It's usually a hard and fast rule. Make sure I know first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely no. I was just moving into. I know you're still teaching.
Speaker 2:Tell me what you're doing now, well, and what you're doing now, that's what I meant to say. Say we needed a certification for LSDD slash things, if you will. At the team level I would be having like 40 guys 50 guys that needed the certification. Sandy Wallace, who was the training director at the time for Defense Technology Safari Land. He generally would come training director at the time for defense technology safari land. He generally would come out and do the class for us, um, him and another guy or another instructor, um. So we just became friends over the years. You know really good friends we were. As you can imagine, we were a pretty big contract for them not only buying 424, plus 120 uh field agents, so that's over 500.
Speaker 2:You know, sets of plates and carriers every year and helmets, but on the on the, you know, in the adult side of it, you know that's 30, 30 000 staff proof vests every five years. So now we're a big contract, um. And so sandy would like to come out, um and see us, um and do the trainings. And just over the years we got to be friends. And he, just before I retired, he said, hey, um, when you're going to retire? And I said to come out and see us and do the trainings. And just over the years we got to be friends. And he, just before I retired, he said hey, when are you going to retire? And I said I don't know, maybe three years, four years. I haven't really thought about it, sandy. And he said where are you going to end up? I said not in California, someplace where the cost of living will, you know, as far as my, we do have a fabulous retirement system, so, but I just wanted to be someplace where it was a little bit more quiet. Um, and I want to get into other reasons. I'm sure you know why, but um sure.
Speaker 2:So, uh, uh, we ended up in North Carolina and um, um hadn't been here probably six months and I started driving Marietta my wife crazy, you know cause. I went to be in, you know, gone a lot, doing a lot of stuff, running a lot of schools, and that that at the team level. The thing I miss the most is you talking about a brotherhood of people. Sure, I mean that will be there for you no matter what's going on. So I really miss that. And she said well, you know, sandy told you, so you give him a call, why don't you call him?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, the next day when I came down, she poured me a cup of coffee and she had a little sticky note on my coffee cup with Sandy's number and she said you will call Sandy. I said hey, listen, sandy, I know we had the conversation several years ago. I'm retired now. I ended up in North Carolina. I was just wondering if you still might be looking for some instructors, and life has a funny way of working out. He said hey, you know, I just had two long East Coast instructors that have taught me for many, many years. They're going to finally really retire. I could really use someone. You know, I know what kind of instructor you are, I could really use you and I said okay, well, let me go to a class, and you know you go to a class, but there might be a different format.
Speaker 2:You teach for your people, right? I just wanted to make sure I was on the same format with them and so that's been. It was five years ago, in march, and that I started teaching for defense technology. So yeah, and mostly um icp classes.
Speaker 2:So all the less lethal oc impact munitions, chemical munitions and flash games so I get to see a lot of good people, you know, that are still, uh, willing to, uh, you know, put it on and and go combat evil on a daily basis. And absolutely I have a unique perspective, you know, because I spent 18 years inside and then I spent 10 years on the street, you know, doing things with task force and warrants and whatnot. You know and I always tell everyone this you know, um, I really believe this in my heart of hearts that correctional staff, um, are the most underappreciated law enforcement in the united states. They just are. Yeah, nothing derogatory about the people that think that. I just think that, you know, until you've been inside a prison, you know day in and day out and see how they conduct themselves, how they handle themselves. Be careful about saying that, because they're protecting us from some of the most dangerous people that we can't let back into society.
Speaker 1:I have a really good perspective about that.
Speaker 1:I'll even expand that a little more because my horizon has been broadened since I did this podcast. That's worldwide, you know, no matter where you're at somebody somewhere sitting in a broken seg chair watching an inmate you know Uh, yeah and uh, cause. We've interviewed UK, australia, canada uh, 61 countries have listened, listened to this podcast, so that that blew me away. I didn't expect any of that, but I'm like you. I love going out there and it was almost a need for me to get back into it, to go visit, and I get to do it every week or every couple of weeks. I go out and I meet law enforcement and corrections and I get to talk to them and see how they're doing and I'm never disappointed. I mean, of course, you know, in the job we're in, where you're going out and training people, you're already getting the best of the best most of the time.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, absolutely yeah, they've already vetted them. You're getting people that want to be instructors. You know they take pride in that. Um yeah. So you know I like it because you know I will get um correctional staff, sometimes from state agencies, sometimes from local jails, sometimes really small jails, and then, you know, I get a lot of SWAT officers in the class. So you know, I've gained a little bit of experience on both sides of the house and you know I'm able to pass that on things that we did and learn, you know, inside and outside, and you know the correctional staff really appreciate that. You know, having someone that has that background, um, the SWAT teams, that the SWAT members that come in, they really appreciate it. You know, when they they say, wow, you guys, you guys were like prison based but you're like we're a SWAT team, I said, oh yeah, we went outside. You know we did warrants and you know, um, so it's a unique perspective.
Speaker 2:Um, and I just I love being around the men and women who are committed to the safety of our nation. You know, I, just I, I absolutely love those people.
Speaker 1:I think that's great words to end with there.
Speaker 2:So what are you working on? Next? I'm going to down to Morrisville, north Carolina, next week I'm going to do a four-day less lethal program for them instruct program. Okay, yeah, it's been a busy year. You know, defense Technology is a great company. We train. I think last year the training director said we trained over 25,000 law enforcement officers.
Speaker 2:It is a big number on a variety of classes. It is a big number on a variety of classes. I do a CERT basic instructor course for corrections, along with the ICP classes. Those are the two main classes that I do for them. We do Red Dot, site Search, warrant, use of Force, vehicles, just everything. Really good company. More importantly, they make really good products that, especially on uh, especially on the correction side, really, really help, you know, to get some of these messes under control. And, um, yeah, it's. I've met a lot of great people. Good company, great people.
Speaker 1:I'm absolutely a fan of safari land and deaf tech, deaf tech and CTS we we work with a lot in the prisons.
Speaker 2:I got, I got really I got a really good friend, husky rest rescue buddy of mine. He was one of my head instructors for many, many years. Saved, saved my ass a couple of times when I was in charge of the schools. He worked for cts on their side.
Speaker 1:So I know I know I've met phil and all the guys over there great company, yeah, yeah, absolutely well, I'll get with you after we get off here and find out what kind of contact information you want put in there. But but I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. Great conversation and it's a pleasure meeting you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:It's been great. Yeah, maybe we'll do it again in the future. Sure, Till next time. This is Mike Cantrell with the Prison Officer Podcast. Hope you have a great day. Mike Cantrell with the Prison Officer Podcast. I hope you have a great day. I would like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors that make the Prison Officer Podcast possible. Omni RTLS is a company that I've been working with for the last year. I am proud to be part of this team of correctional professionals who have developed the best real-time locating system on the market today. With Omni's real-time location technology, you automatically know the accurate locations and interactions of all inmates, staff and assets anywhere in your correctional facility, and you have this information in real time. Omni is cutting-edge software for today's jails and prisons. It is the only way to monitor every square inch of your facility while still being PREA compliant. Go to wwwomnirtlscom for more information and to make your facility safer today. That's wwwomnirtlscom.
