.jpg)
The Prison Officer Podcast
The Prison Officer Podcast is a place where prison officers and correctional staff share their experiences, discuss leadership, cope with stress, and learn survival strategies for one of the toughest careers out there. Hosted by Michael Cantrell, this podcast delves into the lives, dreams, and challenges faced by those who work inside the walls of our nation’s prisons. It features interviews, insights, and discussions related to the unique and demanding world of corrections. Whether it’s overcoming difficult leaders, understanding rehabilitation, or addressing misconceptions about incarcerated populations, the Prison Officer Podcast provides valuable perspectives from professionals in the field.
The Prison Officer Podcast
88: The Many Challenges of Today's Correctional Officer - Interview w/Gary York
How do simple gestures elevate officer morale in an understaffed environment? What happens when political decisions compromise the safety of correctional officers? Join us as we welcome back Gary York, a veteran corrections professional and renowned author. We'll explore the necessity of supportive supervision and the detrimental effects of promoting inexperienced leaders due to staff shortages. Gary offers insights into the complexities of correctional work and the critical need for experienced leadership to maintain order and safety. We also dive into the adverse impact of political interference, such as the restriction of essential safety tools, and propose practical solutions like regular visits by lawmakers to better understand the realities faced by correctional staff.
Gary's LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-york-787345a0/
Click below to buy Gary's books:
The Toughest Job: Correctional Officers USA
Corruption Behind Bars
Hooves and Boots Adventures: Fun with Grandpa and Grandma
From crowd control to cell extractions, the PepperBall system is the safe, non-lethal option.
OMNI
OMNI is cutting-edge software designed to track inmates and assets within your prison or jail.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Contact us: mike@theprisonofficer.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ThePrisonOfficer
Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of this Pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. Pepperball allows officers to respond with the lowest level of force and still be effective and ready if the situation escalates. The responding officer controls where the projectiles are aimed, how many projectiles are launched and how rapidly they're deployed. This allows the response to be tailored to the moment. To learn more about Pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below in the show's information guide. Pepperball is the safer option first. Okay, welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. Today I'm excited to have a returning guest, gary York, from episode 64 on the Prison Officer Podcast. He's a writer, a YouTuber, an author. His books Corruption Behind Bars, inside the Inner Circle and the Toughest Job are regularly highlighted in the rankings in Amazon.
Speaker 1:Gary's career in corrections and law enforcement spans decades. He served in the United States Army from 1978 to 87, was honorably discharged as a staff sergeant from the Military Police Corps. Gary then began his career at the Department of Corrections as a correctional officer and was eventually promoted to senior prison inspector where for the next 12 years he conducted criminal, civil and administrative investigations in many state prisons. In 1991, gary received the Leadership Award from the National Association of Black Law Enforcement Officers and in 1998, he was the statewide Senior Prison Inspector of the Year. In 2004, gary was asked to work with the US Department of Justice on a program for in-custody death training in Tashkent, uzbekistan. Hope I got that right.
Speaker 1:After leaving the state prison system, gary went on to complete 12 years with the Polk County Sheriff's Office in Florida. Gary worked in the South County Jail and was a juvenile drill instructor. He fully retired as a Master Deputy Bailiff with a total of more than 28 years of service. Gary has a Master's Degree in Criminal Justice from Florida Metropolitan and is certified as a public manager by Florida State University. He also is acting as a subject matter expert for the International Association of Chiefs of Police, where he does training. He's now a columnist for Corrections One and has a YouTube channel titled True Prison Stories, and I'll put all that connection information in the show notes there. Welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast, gary.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you very much for having me back. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I know you know it's interesting. We have these social connections with different people and I've seen that you've been all over the place, you're doing training and still involved in corrections, still writing for corrections. One you just can't let go of it.
Speaker 2:No, I just can't let go of it. You know I've been retired for eight years and, uh, I'm still writing articles for corrections. One I'm still traveling to different uh agencies across the country. Uh, talking to frontline officers, mid managers, um, you know I've got a couple of more uh places to go before the year's over for presentations. Uh, and my fourth book is due to be out very quickly.
Speaker 1:Oh, congratulations. I'm just teasing you because I'm failing retirement horribly myself. I'm working much harder doing all the training and stuff that I'm doing than I did when I was actually working in corrections. But I love getting out there and seeing. You know all the correctional officers and the law enforcement officers. I teach them sometimes, but it's so, it's so good to go out there and try to help them and pass on some information. I know you enjoy that too.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, people have asked me. Retired deputies have said well, why do you still continue doing this? I say, just as you, I enjoy talking to the officers, but more than that. If there's only one thing that we can help with, I hope there's more. But if there's only one thing that we can help with, I hope there's more. But if there's only one thing that we can help with, I feel like we've done something good for the correctional officer profession, because I don't want to see the correctional officer profession being misjudged. I want it to be seen properly, in the way it should be.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's a conversation I've had and I just had it last week where I was doing some pepper ball training and I talked to one of the older people and one of the older staff members who was getting close to retirement and you know he was talking about the new generation, you know, and they won't listen to me and I'm glad to be getting out of this because they're, they just don't listen to me and I'm I'm, I'm glad to be getting out of this because they're, they just don't want to listen. And I looked at him and I said you do realize there's no other choice. We've got to help these people understand this job. We've got to get them excited about it. We got to show them all the good stuff that's in it. Yeah, it's got some bad stuff, it's got some dark times, we've all been through those but we've got to get them excited about it, because somebody's got to watch those fences for the next 10, 20, 30, 100 years. I don't know.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying I know exactly what you're saying. I will not mention the location, but I had a group, or we had a group of officers, frontline officers and one of my questions was are you mentoring the younger officers? Are you taking them under your wing? One officer said why? Why waste my breath, they know everything. There's nothing I could tell them. They don't know. Before I could say something, I was so happy to see the other officers jump on it. They said what are you talking about? We have to help them, we need the help. We're short staffed, so we want help, so we have to do this. And I thought well, I don't have to answer that question. His own co-workers jumped on him for being negative about helping the younger officer, about helping the younger officer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's as much about helping the millennials learn their job as it is helping the older staff understand they still have a job. And that's mentoring, that's showing them the way up. And, like you said one thing, if you could teach one thing, how many times, thinking back over your however many years, do you remember one thing from this person? One thing from this person?
Speaker 2:That's how I learned everything Right and I'm still learning today on these travels. But you're correct, I think back on my career and I think, boy, thank goodness for this officer who taught me this, thank goodness for that supervisor who told me something that stuck with me for the rest of my career and helped me, you know, yeah, absolutely the uh uh reason.
Speaker 1:I contacted you again, not just cause I like you, but, uh, I also read your article that came out this week in corrections one. So, uh, I'd kind of like to step into it a little bit, maybe expand on some of these subjects that you brought up, because I think it touches what's going on in corrections today right at the heart of some of it. So the article in Corrections 1, you guys can look it up, I'll put a link in the show notes. It's what correctional officers really want and what's stopping change from happening. And right now we've got a lot of stuff going on in corrections, um, but Gary's listed 10 of them here.
Speaker 1:Number one is more staff. Uh, this is a critical issue because adequate staffing directly impacts our safety, allowing for proper rest and essential mental wellness breaks. I've talked to these guys and they're getting back to back to back sometimes four times a week and then on the fifth day they're trying to get home before they can get mandated. They're not answering their phones. It's like it's always been tough in corrections, but I don't know that it's ever been this tough. Tell me some more about that.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think a lot of people would think, oh, number one would be money. Well, money was at the bottom of the list, believe it or not. When I talk to people and I'm talking about from coast to coast, and I just spoke to some officers that are working four straight mandatory 16-hour shifts and sometimes those 16-hour shifts turn into 20 because when they are relieved they've had so many call-ins they have to ask them to stay an extra four 20-hour shifts, and this is unbelievable and the number one answer when I ask officers on the front line what would you like to see more of? I'm getting more staff and I can understand that, because they're burned out, they're tired, they're weary, they're missing family time. They're telling me which we understand, that then we know they're missing family time. They said they're eating improperly, because how do you work that long? And then, you know, eat properly. So all these things are stressing the officers, hurting them, uh, physically and mentally, uh, it's just too many hours, and that's the number one answer. Please, get us more help, please.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I think the thing that's compounding some of this and I'll tell a little something after you and I talk here is the fact that I don't know that we're still hiring officers at the same level we were. You know, some of these agencies are taking what they can get, and how's that affecting our profession?
Speaker 2:I was told by a couple of groups that the hiring process number one is very slow. Now, this isn't every agency across the country, but I think it's a common denominator in one way or another across the country. Their hiring process is slow. They are hiring not quality. In some cases, less quality, more quantity. Whatever they can get is what the true answers I'm getting, and when that happens, they are seeing officers departing right after the academy, at the three-month level, the six-month level and the uh year after a year and then after that, their next big group of exits are after three years.
Speaker 2:So it's not only training. It's not only hiring for quality, I think it's training to retain as another issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you've got that on here. Um, you know, I talked to a group. I was teaching a class and had multiple agencies all in the same room from the same state. But there were multiple agencies and they got to talking and three of them in the room had hired the same person as a detention officer and one had gotten rid of it. The next one hired him. They'd gotten rid of him. The next one hired him. So it sounded like they were just passing their their problem on. You know, that's sad.
Speaker 2:Communication problem uh among the the hiring process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, Train to retain that's something, uh, I talked about on corrections one earlier this year. But tell me your take on train to retain. What does training have to do with keeping staff?
Speaker 2:Well, number one if we bring these young officers in and we just throw them out to the wolves and give them no guidance, they're going to fail many of them. Many of them are going to fail because most of them don't have any uh, street experience, life experience, and they're getting eaten up by these incarcerated folks that have done nothing but manipulate people all their life, use people and they know trickery I call it trickery and they will use every one of these weapons on a new officer. So we have to have a mentor available for young officers. We have to give them the fighting chance, train them in ethics, train them in inmate manipulation, train them properly so that they at least have a chance to survive, and that outlet to a senior officer, someone they can talk to. Without any of these things, you're pretty much throwing them in, say, sink or swim, sure.
Speaker 1:And you were talking about how quickly some of these staff are leaving, and I had this discussion not too pretty recently. You know, safety is one of the biggest things and that's if you look in leadership books. Everybody wants to be safe at work. They want to know that their views are accepted, they want to you know, know that kind of stuff. But in corrections we actually have a physical safety aspect that we have to take a look at. So if they don't feel like they're safe inside, if they feel like they've been pushed out there without the tools, without the skills, without the ability to cope with what's coming at them, which is not normal. When we go into prison as rookies, what we're faced with is not normal. Most people don't grow up in a manipulative, violent environment, and if we don't make them feel safe, they're going to walk out the door. So that's where training comes in.
Speaker 2:Correct and we have to tell our officers who are mentoring them and they look up to I know you've been around 15, 20 years, you're worn out, you're tired, but you got to keep that positive attitude in front of them. If you run around with a negative attitude in front of these new officers, all you're doing is building their more, giving them more reason to leave Now they not only have a violent environment, an unsafe environment, but all they hear is negativity from the other officers.
Speaker 2:Environment, but all they hear is negativity from the other officers. If you want more staff and you really want the help, you have to pitch in to help keep those staff Right.
Speaker 1:And those staff have to know and this goes for every company anywhere the staff have to know that you care and you have to be authentic about that. I know you talked about mentorship and coaching and getting involved with the staff and letting them see you, do you get the idea and I'm not picking on anybody here and I'm not saying that it's wrong in every instance but I see a lot of it on Facebook. We had a pizza party for the staff. A lot of it on Facebook. Uh, we had a pizza party for the staff. You know pizza parties, not what they're wanting. That's nice, yeah, they can, they can have a little bit of a break there, but they're wanting somebody to walk by and say how are you doing today and then take one minute to listen to how they're doing today. You agree with that?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, I'm going to tell you what I, what I, from the front line, I like to. I like to go out and get and get the information directly from them, because I feel they're the backbone of our agency and we need to listen to them. Uh, they're saying don't tell me you care, show us you care, and not with a pizza, show us you care. So then I would say how would you view a supervisor showing you they care? They said a supervisor that comes around and says hey, comes to the dorm middle of the shift. Is there anything you need? Is everything going okay? Do you need a break? And that's a big thing with them a break, because with this many hours of work and overtime.
Speaker 2:So a lot of them said good supervisors, well, take a minute. Hey, take 10 minutes. I'll sit in this chair. You know we're in between count time. We're in between feeding time. Go, walk around for 10 minutes. It's okay as a supervisor to do that. We're in between count time. We're in between feeding time. Go walk around for 10 minutes. It's okay as a supervisor to do that. You're not degrading yourself. You're building yourself up in the eyes of your officers. Look at my leader. He's coming around checking on us making sure we're getting a break, you know, making sure we get some food. Hey, I'm going to sit here for 15 minutes, go down to staff dining and get that plate. Little things like that are what they're asking for. That's showing, not just talking.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and people don't realize, you know. And it's doubled down, I think, with the lack of staff. You've got housing units that used to there were two officers in, now there's one, and that's happening all over the place. So when you're sitting and I've done it, you've done it you're sitting in a housing unit for eight hours is tough enough, but now you just got pulled in. You're doing 16 hours inside a housing unit with not one second that you can drop your social situational awareness because you're surrounded by inmates. Not one second to let your brain just go wow for a second. And I remember the supervisors that came through, you know, and they would, you know they'd see me walking around and just nodding while I was walking because I was trying not to fall asleep on my second shift, and they'd go I got this, go take a walk, go get some coffee, go get a bag of Doritos. It did, it meant a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. And just think when you're by yourself. Jails and prisons have a little different way. They do things with medical staff and dental, but let's say you're in the jail and you're by yourself, which is very often. Here comes MedPass. Oh, I'm not quite done with MedPass. Yes, and here comes the medical cart. I mean, here comes the food cart. Oh my gosh, you are just bombarded constantly and that's a lot of pressure for one officer to handle.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And we have a culture that I'm not going to call the sergeant, I'm not going to call the lieutenant every time I've had a question. So for us to pick up a phone and ask a question or to get some guidance, that doesn't feel right in most agencies, in most jails and prisons. So, being able to have a supervisor walk through there and say, hey, how's it going tonight? Well, boss, you know, is this something we can do or is that something that I'm allowed, just that little helping them know their job, instead of sitting there thinking I don't know what to do, you know, and just stewing on it. So I think that's so important Absolutely. Let's talk about promotion from within. I think this is huge. Right now. I will use a couple of examples and then you tell me what you think also.
Speaker 1:But the Federal Bureau of Prisons in the first 84 years of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, there were seven directors. In the last 11 years there's been six directors. Yes, that's the way things are going. It's this political atmosphere. We've got these agencies that are getting appointed by governors by talked about the FBI recently, the secret service recently. You know she came from what? Pepsi Cola, and then she was the head of the secret service Um, we've got a lot of that going on. What do you think the answer to that is and what's causing it? Any clues?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the officers were concerned with that. That's why I sent my article. They actually brought that up. Promotions from within are not happening for higher echelon positions and it's affecting them greatly. Number one, they're saying all these appointed people that have never worked at corrections at all, well, I'm not saying that you can't come from a police department, a fire department, the military, and be a good leader. I'm not disrespecting that, sure, but I'm saying maybe you don't fully understand how corrections works. It's a very complex business and I don't even want to use the word business. It's a very complex job to run a jail, a prison or the whole state.
Speaker 2:And you need to know something about corrections to understand the frontline officers. So I think my point here is I really we really need people that understand what the frontline officers are saying in order to absorb it and and help them. And, uh, when you get people appointed and they hang around three years and they start a change but it never gets completed and then they leave and here comes another one, and another one, and another one, the officers are telling me nothing is getting accomplished because everybody comes in with a great new idea and never gets to see the fruitation of that idea. Now we're down here at the bottom, still stuck, and actually going backwards instead of forward, and actually going backwards instead of forward.
Speaker 2:Also, another issue that may be hindering that is we're short-staffed and we're having to hire people and make them sergeants after two years of service. So they may be great people, but they're lacking the knowledge. You know, when I was in, you might be a sergeant eight, nine, 10 years later, but look at all the experience you've gathered over those years. Unfortunately, now people aren't putting in for promotion for various reasons, and then the ones that are putting in only have two years under their belt various reasons. And then the ones that are putting in only have two years under their belt.
Speaker 1:And I think that is hindering some of us as well. Yeah, I've heard rumors of a 10 year warden in the Bureau of Prisons. I haven't confirmed that, but people are. There's this accelerated promotion deal going on. I was a correctional officer for almost 17 years. Before I moved in Now I was acting Lieutenant, but before I actually got promoted to Lieutenant I had 17 years working the floor, working the housing unit, running teams, being the number one on a unit. Um, when I walked into the Lieutenant, I knew what was going on with my officers. Um, and I think you're absolutely right, I think a lot of the administrators right now didn't have that time in a unit, in a seg unit working doubles, to understand what those officers are going through, and that's why they're showing up with pizza instead of taking five minutes to say hi, what do you need? No, absolutely I think they should at minimum.
Speaker 2:If we're not going to, if we're going to appoint people that haven't been in, they should at minimum. If we're not going to, if we're going to appoint people that haven't been in, corrections, at minimum get out there and talk to your staff, walk those floors, let them know you're not scared. You and I both know officers could tell uh, I've heard officers say that warden's scared to come on the compound. I have never seen that warden on the compound. They're scared of the inmates. Officers know you know Right.
Speaker 1:What was the lieutenant? The second lieutenant in Band of Brothers. You remember that during the Battle of the Bulge yes, yes. He kept having to go up to headquarters and left everybody else alone.
Speaker 2:Yes, it kind of feels like that sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting here Consistency in staff discipline. What's going on with that? I haven't heard too much about that, but what were you?
Speaker 2:hearing. I've heard it in several different places. What they're saying is I do a use of force, I do the use of force perfectly, there's no problem with the use of force. Oh, look in the use of force video, that officer's got white socks on. Go write them up. Look in the use of force video, there's a cell door open in the back. Go write that officer up. Whoa, the officer just got done with the use of force. Everything was perfect, no problem, and you're going to go to the paper immediately you can't take the officer to the side.
Speaker 2:Hey, saw the use of force. You did have white socks. Hey, it's not a game breaker, but wear the right socks next time. Sure, it's easy. They're saying they're getting written up and one of their big complaints is and I you know there's two sides to story, but this is one of the big complaints we're getting written up for stuff like that, but yet I can't write the inmate up for discipline. I'm told no, no, no, you're not going to write that inmate up.
Speaker 2:Just, you know we'll do this or that, but they're feeling that the inmates are getting written up less for discipline, and when they need to be disciplined, than the officers the officers are being scrutinized more. Now, folks, there's two sides to every story. We would have to interview the mid-management and upper management and find out how true some of this is, how much of it is true and how much of it is complaining. Those two scenarios I gave you, though, sound to me like they really happened, or they wouldn't have brought that up.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and that was something even with my experience when I moved into a position of reviewing use of forces. You've got to learn that you're watching a minute of what's going on and you're not seeing the whole thing, and you've got to reserve your judgment until the end of the video, till you've got all the information. And even for me, with lots of experience done, hundreds of used forces when I became captain, I would sit in those rooms and I would see everybody do those knee-jerk reactions. Well, did the officer do that? You know, I saw him throw a punch. Well, there's an inmate biting the other officer on the bottom of the pile that you can't see. Have we asked the officer why he threw the punch? You know, um, and that comes from experience, and back to what we just talked about, you've got people in those positions that don't have the experience to understand that they've never been on the bottom of a dog pile, probably experience to understand that They've never been on the bottom of a dog pile probably who's?
Speaker 1:watching those videos, some of those appointed administrators. When I'm asked what I look for in a leader, I always come back to three things, and this is just my belief. This is what I teach, but I believe everybody wants authenticity, they want a clarity of mission and they want direction, and I found in your article, over and over and over again, that those three things were mentioned. What's some of the things that you think are the most important leadership skills that we're not seeing?
Speaker 2:Well, an authentic leader. Obviously, we talked about that. Show you care. We've already talked about that. It's so easy Be genuine, be sincere and show you care. So that's super important Clarity.
Speaker 2:We need a leader who knows what the mission is, but also knows how to take his team of officers and accomplish that mission and teach his officers to understand what the mission is, so they know what we're looking forward to, and get them to follow willingly and get the job done. That's teamwork. Sure, I call it leader versus boss. You know, a leader is going to guide and counsel and coach and get them through what they need to do Right, and a boss is just going to say do it and get it done. You know, and direction hey, everybody needs structure. I mean, I don't care who you are, I need structure.
Speaker 2:Officers need structure. No matter how good the officers are, we have to give them guidelines. The policies and procedures are not there to harm you. They are there to help you. If you read them and understand them and trust the officers have to trust their leader. It's such a big thing. Some of the folks are saying we've lost trust between the ranks and that's not good. When frontline loses trust for mid-management, mid-management doesn't trust the upper administration, hey, we're failing, we're crumbling apart. That means our whole agency is missing structure and discipline.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, you mentioned an interesting thing there and I've been putting some thought into this lately and it's policy, knowing your policy. So I go out to these classes and some of what I teach has to do with less lethal and use of force. So we're in that type of discussion and I often find staff who say, well, we can't do that. Okay, why can't you? Well, because that that person in charge doesn't want us to. Okay, what's your policy? Saying, well, that doesn't matter. Well, it does matter. You, and I know it's tough, I've done it. I've stood there right there in the doorway getting my butt chewed and holding up policy. But this is what I can do and this is how I can interact with that inmate. These are the things I can do when he's not compliant. But they feel like the administration is just making up their own rules and that it's not following the policy. So have you seen some of that? Do you know what I'm talking about there?
Speaker 2:Yes, I'll tell you what's happened a lot. I just saw an article august 17th, new york city council has put a bill in to limit the use of pepper spray in jail. I saw that, okay, now your policy says you can use pepper spray. Now city council is going to jump in. They don't know anything about corrections and they're going to say you're going to limit the use of pepper spray. Well, now you have opened up a can of worm. What do you want to do? Go back to physical force. Do you want more? The only option. Yeah. Do you want more injuries? Do you want to do? Go back to physical force. Do you want more? That's the only option. Yeah, do you want more injuries? Do you want more medical costs? They're not thinking ahead and the officers union is having a fit. They said you're setting up a violent situation. Sure, you know they're already the New York City Council. Sure, you know they're already the New York City Council before the pepper spray is limiting the use of handcuffs during movement. No-transcript, we're not going to do that.
Speaker 2:And then you're holding up a policy, says I could do it. It says because it hadn't changed yet and hopefully it doesn't, hope, hopefully they don't get that bill through. But I mean, there's so many scenarios where what you just described happens and it's a shame.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's the politics getting involved in this, uh, with those hires that don't don't have the experience, and now they're interfering with the actual policies. You know, I remember we used to transport inmates outside the prison. We asked for OC for a long time and they said no, no, we don't want somebody accidentally spraying OC in the hospital, you know, or something like that. Okay, so you've given me two options I can either fight the guy or I can shoot him. There's no option in the middle there, you know, oc makes up that. That middle ground. Oc, pepper ball uh, you know there's lots of options out there. 40 millimeters, uh, it's like going in a cell. Why would we?
Speaker 1:When I started, we turned a brown hat backwards cap on our on our head, took our badge off and we went in the cell five deep. That was a use of force. And then we got smarter and we got tools, we got tasers, we got pepper ball, we got OC. And we didn't have to do that. Because what the public doesn't understand is that the moment you pop that door and go through that door, there's only two things that you're going to get out of that You're going to get injury or you're going to get liability. There's no other thing that happens when you pop the door for a use of force. So if I could spray a little OC in there and I can get that inmate to become compliant and cuff up through the tray slot so that we're not having to fight on the floor. We've just avoided liability injury, which are two of the things that cost these agencies the most.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Politics is taking corrections backwards and it's a shame, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Part of that is probably just our political climate today, with nobody being able to sit down and talk, nobody being able to look at the issues and come to normal agreements.
Speaker 2:You know, we don't seem to be able to do that anymore is that some of these politicians who want to make these changes have been invited to please come and walk the prison, walk the jail, and many of them have turned down the invite. So if you're not even going to go, look at what you're trying to change. We've got some problems folks.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I'm going to ask you this question afterwards, but I'll answer it first. What is it that we can do to fix some of this stuff? And I've got a couple of things, and one of them is Having people visit our jails. If you're a senator, if you're a US judge, if you're a city councilman, you should be going to the jail. If you're a US senator, you should be going to the federal prisons. You should be walking through there and seeing what you're talking about. All judges, I think every couple of years, should have to walk through, because there was recently a judge have you seen? This article came out a couple of weeks ago that a federal judge I think it was in New York sentenced a guy to nine months, but with the criteria that if he was sent to MDC Brooklyn, which is a federal prison up there, that he was moved to house arrest because the judge doesn't think the conditions at Brooklyn are good enough for the inmate. So we've got judges deciding whether or not our prisons can handle an inmate. If it's that bad, then we should be doing something besides that.
Speaker 1:The other thing I'll say is with I think we could fix some of this is with the political appointees. That needs to be taken away. When we put a Supreme Court justice on the bench, what do we do? We have some hearings, we sit down, we learn about this person. You know, congress does that, our senators do that, our elected representatives should be part of that. That shouldn't be one person, one governor, one president, whatever getting to decide who gets these jobs. They're too important and that's something that we didn't do 100 years ago and we need to get back to that. My opinion what's some of the things you think we can change or help will help this?
Speaker 2:Well, we both now mentioned that the politicians need to go visit the jails or prisons and see what's really happening. Visit the jails and prisons and see what's really happening. Um, I would like to see these politicians making these decisions. The city council, board of county, commissioners, legislature many states do have once a year during legislature, where the officers go up to the capitol and talk to them, sure, but they don't give them much time. They say you have two minutes to talk, you know? I think they're going to have to open their doors more and give more time to listen to the correctional officers, the people who stand between the criminals in the streets and protect the society.
Speaker 1:I mean come on on.
Speaker 2:Let them have their time to talk to you and explain to you the real problems that we just discussed today and hear it. And the other problem is budget. Don't cut the budget for corrections. Understand the need for the tools that we talked about, for the staff that we need and the training that we need. How do we do that? Boy, that's tough because you know they're all so busy in their own world, but they need to take time to listen to our cry for help from corrections.
Speaker 1:That's a great way to put it, because I really feel like we're at the edge of something here. It's going to get worse. I feel like I'm hearing it, just like you are. Maybe, since we're so connected, maybe we're the first people that are hearing this cry for help which is going out people that are hearing this cry for help which is going out.
Speaker 2:And yes, because you know we came up from old school to all the way to the new technology today, so we've seen all sides, and a lot of the folks out there only see today's way of doing things.
Speaker 1:Absolutely way of doing things, absolutely Um, we we do have a lot of administrators and a lot of supervisors who still want things to be the way it was. The world's changed, the world's moved on. I was talking to somebody you know we're talking about staffing and and scheduling and there's apps out there now for your phone where you could actually allow the officers to switch shifts, to get days off at the same time, so they get two in a row. But you know people are resistant to grab hold of this because they think you know, well, no, I need to be watching this. Well, let the program watch it, you can review it, but I don't know there's a lot of that out there that we could improve, just bringing that stuff into our uh, into our jobs change.
Speaker 2:Change is good as long as it's good change you know, change is good we have to. If we don't change and keep up with the technology, uh, we're going to fall behind even more, not besides from what we're talking about. So we have to have this new technology and the older folks are going to have to bite the bullet and learn how to use it. I mean, I did. I. I went from no computers to computers and everybody's scared, you know, oh, oh, my God, what are we going to do?
Speaker 1:Right. So you um, you said you've been doing some stuff. You got a couple of things coming up this rest of this year. Tell me what you got going Some trainings.
Speaker 2:Yes, uh, I just got back from New York. Uh, corrections and uh. Next month I have two presentations at the Tennessee Correctional Convention. They asked me to do a presentation on challenges correctional officers face yearly and I'm going to talk about all the challenges we face yearly and I want to throw in some of this discussion from leadership being an authentic leader. I want to throw in some of this discussion from leadership being an authentic leader. I want to throw in some of my article I just wrote in that presentation as well and I look forward to meeting those folks in Tennessee. I did talk at their convention in 2018. I believe it was in Tennessee. I really like those folks over there good group of people and I'm looking forward to talking to them again September 25th, I believe it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I learned this year I went to work for Command Presence and so we've been working with TCI over there in Tennessee, which is the Tennessee Correctional Institute. That is such an amazing thing that they've done. The legislature has set aside money to have it's kind of like post, but it's more than that, because they're actually going out and doing the training but they're trying to help standardize the jails, the counties and giving help all across that state in the detention and correctional centers and I was just really impressed with them. You just you mentioned Tennessee. I had to throw that out there that I've met those guys this year and they're doing a great job.
Speaker 2:They've done some impressive things. I'm telling you I like the path Tennessee is going on.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Um, so I gotta. I was doing some more research because I'd had your bio, but I was like, let me make sure nothing's new and I ran across something that I didn't know about you. You wrote a kid's book.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I took our grandchildren's pictures all throughout our farm. Here we have five grandchildren, yeah, and as they're playing with the cattle, the goats, the alpaca or the dogs or just running through the woods, I took pictures. And hey, I it's not a number one bestseller, but it's kind of neat to publish a children's book. You know, on the farm with grandma and grandpa and um, just to see it get out there and published. And hey, uh, it's kind of neat because the pictures were turned into cartoon pictures. They're actual pictures of her grandchildren turned into cartoon pictures. It's kind of neat to see that. And boy, the kids think that's the greatest thing in the world that they're in a book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I knew you were an author. Yeah, I was surprised. Hooves and boots, adventures, fun with grandma and grandpa. I will put a link to that down there in the show notes so if anybody else wants to buy one for their children or grandchildren, they can but that's great thank you? You said you're working on a new book. Is that right? Yes, uh, it's a traditional publisher.
Speaker 2:It's taken almost two years. But when you're working on a new book, is that right? Yes, uh, it's a traditional publisher. It's taken almost two years. But when you're in the hands of a traditional publisher, sure you just sit back and wait, but it's finally coming out within a month, I believe. Uh, the tainted shield. I don't want the title to sound oh, the tainted shield. So bad, but it does tell. This is a little bit different style that I've ever done.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I'm getting a lot of questions about okay, the officers have stress and what about the inmates, and vice versa. I said I think I'll write a book about both sides of the house. Yeah, we'll talk about officers and we'll talk about inmates. Some inmates will return and return and return. Some will become successful people in our society and that's what we hope for. So I thought I'd write a little different style and see how that works. Everything's in the hands of the traditional publisher. I can't do the pricing on this one or anything, but we'll see what happens. It's called the Tainted Shield. It talks about the stress officers go through the statistics and it also talks about stress and statistics that inmates deal with.
Speaker 1:Sure. So I mean, since we've been on this subject today, we've been talking about the stressors that the officers are dealing with multiple shifts, no days off, administration politics Does that run downhill in the prisons? Does that affect our inmates? Does it affect the amount of violence in our prisons?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean when you don't have structure and discipline and good leaders among your correctional ranks, guess what happens to the inmate population? Yeah, outside influence as well has a factor. They become disruptive, they start running amok, total chaos. They start attacking officers. You'll see more assaults on officers when we can't use the book of discipline and the pen to write them up. And take away some canteen, take away visitation, take away uh writing letters or whatever something uh to show them that you cannot do these things. We are losing the battlegrounds. I've talked to some agencies that are having a lot of assaults and slashings. One agency showed me their board for the week. We were only like on the fourth day and they'd already had eight slashings. Luckily, they said. Luckily, these are inmate on inmate Sure, but we've had slashings on our staff as well. When you lose structure in your own correctional ranks, you lose the structure and discipline on the floor as well and we're not keeping care of our house.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Another thing I don't think people are really aware of that's happening with everything that officers are dealing with, and I listened to a lady on a podcast. I've reached out to her to see if she'll come on here and talk more a professor who's been to 60 jails and prisons doing some research, and one of the places she was at was so short that the inmates hadn't been outside the housing unit for nine months. They didn't have any yard time. That's something that's just going to compound and compound until people are getting hurt. You can't do that to humans, whether it's staff or whether it's inmates. You can't do that to humans.
Speaker 2:What a great point, because you know they are humans and we have to treat them as such. What a great point because you know they are humans and we have to treat them as such. And when you start doing things like you just mentioned, all it does is build a time bomb that will explode at some point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no programming, because they don't have staff, so they don't have anybody to open up the, you know, the chapel or open up the education and stuff like that. It's a compounding problem Absolutely Well, hey Gary, thank you so much for coming on here. I appreciate everything you do for corrections. I love your articles and I love your insight. Uh, and, of course, your books. I'm looking forward to the next one. But thank you for going out there and listening to these officers and bringing that to light so that everybody can see some of that and understand what's going on. I appreciate it and I know out there and listening to these officers and bringing that to light so that everybody can see some of that and understand what's going on. I appreciate it and I know they do.
Speaker 2:Well, we appreciate you as well and your podcast, because you're bringing people from around the country to talk about these things. We appreciate you very well and I always, wherever I go, there's a few things on my list and you're one of them I always tell them to get on that prison podcast and listen to it.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that. Um, it's been a fun journey so far, um, getting to meet everybody and people like you that I probably wouldn't have met if I hadn't done this. So, um, thank you very much. And to all of you out there, when you uh get to work tomorrow, uh, walk by somebody, ask them how they're doing and stop and take a minute to listen. It's the thing you can do the most for each other inside. And until next time, thank you, have a great day.
Speaker 1:I would like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors that make the prison officer podcast possible. Omni RTLS is a company that I've been working with for the last year. I am proud to be part of this team of correctional professionals who have developed the best real time locating system on the market today. With Omni's real time location technology, you automatically know the accurate locations and interactions of all inmates, staff and assets anywhere in your correctional facility, and you have this information in real time. Omni is cutting-edge software for today's jails and prisons. It is the only way to monitor every square inch of your facility while still being PREA compliant. Go to wwwomnirtlscom for more information and to make your facility safer today. That's wwwomnirtlscom.
