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The Prison Officer Podcast
The Prison Officer Podcast is a place where prison officers and correctional staff share their experiences, discuss leadership, cope with stress, and learn survival strategies for one of the toughest careers out there. Hosted by Michael Cantrell, this podcast delves into the lives, dreams, and challenges faced by those who work inside the walls of our nation’s prisons. It features interviews, insights, and discussions related to the unique and demanding world of corrections. Whether it’s overcoming difficult leaders, understanding rehabilitation, or addressing misconceptions about incarcerated populations, the Prison Officer Podcast provides valuable perspectives from professionals in the field.
The Prison Officer Podcast
86: The Complex World of Corrections: A Deep Dive with Dr. Mike Pittaro
What drives someone to dedicate their life to understanding inmate behavior and educating future criminal justice professionals? Join us for a compelling conversation with Dr. Mike Pittaro, associate professor of criminal justice at the American Military University and Director of Corrections for Northampton County Department of Corrections in Pennsylvania. Dr. Pittaro shares the crucial need for mental health training for correctional officers, who frequently face high rates of depression and anxiety, and underscores the importance of dedicated psychiatric facilities. This segment promises to equip future corrections professionals with a realistic and comprehensive understanding of the field. Dr. Pittaro explains the complexities of institutional culture and the importance of staff retention in creating a safe environment that fosters rehabilitation. We highlight the multifaceted roles of corrections officers and the ongoing efforts to improve conditions within corrections. Whether you're a seasoned professional or new to the field, this episode offers valuable perspectives and practical knowledge from an expert deeply committed to making a positive impact.
You can reach Dr. Pittaro at: crimenjustice@ptd.net
Contemporary Corrections on Amazon.com
Dr. Michael’s LinkedIn Profile linkedin.com/in/drmichaelpittaro
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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times. Now as a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of this Pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. Pepperball allows officers to respond with the lowest level of force and still be effective and ready if the situation escalates. The responding officer controls where the projectiles are aimed, how many projectiles are launched and how rapidly they're deployed. This allows the response to be tailored to the moment. To learn more about Pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below in the show's information guide. Pepperball is the safer option first. Okay, welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Mike Cantrell and I'll be your host today. I've got a special guest today. I've been waiting quite a while to talk to. His name is Dr Mike Pitaro. He is an associate professor of criminal justice with the American Military University. He also serves as the director of corrections for Northampton County Department of Corrections in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1:Dr Pitaro has worked in correction administration, served as the executive director of an outpatient drug and alcohol facility and as the executive director of an outpatient drug and alcohol facility and as the executive director of a crime prevention agency. He's got more than 35 years of experience in education and criminal justice and continues to serve internationally as an author, speaker and subject matter expert. He's the author of more than 200 publications and recently published his most recent book, which is Contemporary Corrections. We'll talk a little bit about that today. This introduces students to the challenges and realities facing corrections, not only regarding the types of facilities and populations that exist, but also regarding the issues experienced directly by those who work in corrections and probation and parole. Dr Pitaro holds a PhD in criminal justice, an MPA in public administration and a BS in criminal justice. His areas of expertise are corrections, namely correctional leadership, and in providing education and awareness of suicide among criminal justice professionals. So welcome to the Prison Officer Podcast today. Mr Pitar, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing well, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to join you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I've read several of your articles over the years and the one I want to talk about today was the one you had in psychology today about mental illness, but we'll get to that here in a little bit. I always like to start my interviews the same way, and that's to start back at the beginning, because nobody comes into corrections the same way. So tell me where you grew up and what that was like and some of those first steps you took into corrections.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I actually was born and raised in New Jersey. I went to college out of Kutztown University, which is in Pennsylvania. After college I decided to stay out here in Pennsylvania and the real reason for it was simply because New Jersey is so damn expensive to live in and Pennsylvania is not, and so I stayed here. So I've been in Pennsylvania more than I have in New Jersey. As far as my lifespan Getting into corrections is, you know, like you said, some people fall into it and I literally fell into it.
Speaker 2:I ended up graduating from college and I applied for a job and I was told to come in for an interview. It was a panel interview and I've never been on a panel interview prior to that. Absolutely I wasn't prepared for that. You know you're nervous as it is going into an interview, one-on-one. But now I have eight people looking at me and firing different questions and I remember specifically you know when you're firing different questions and I remember specifically you know when you're in an interview. I thought I nailed the response. I was like, oh yeah, thinking to myself, boy, I really nailed that. And then one of the other members goes elaborate and I was like, oh shit, right, man, that's all I had.
Speaker 2:So I actually walked away from that interview thinking I'd bombed and I wasn't going to hear from them. And about three days later I got the call that they wanted to offer me a position and initially I looked at it as well. It's a temporary gig. I'll get a year of experience under my belt and then try to apply and go elsewhere. And then 13 years go by and I really started to enjoy it. It was really a good thing for me and you know I've always been inquisitive and I enjoyed working with the inmates. I know that sounds kind of odd, but I really and to this day I still enjoy that, you know, trying to understand, like, how did you get to this point in your life? So it fascinated me.
Speaker 2:After serving 13 years, though, I realized I wasn't really going to move up any further at that time due to the fact that the individuals ahead of me were around the same age. So I decided that I was going to look elsewhere and apply my leadership skills to some other position, and I entered into drug and alcohol outpatient facility ran. That then went back to New Jersey where I was raised and oversaw a crime prevention agency, and then a friend of mine, I also fell into this a friend of mine called me on a Friday and said hey, listen, we have an open class that we need to fill.
Speaker 2:It's Intro to Criminal Justice. Would you be interested in teaching it? I'm like I've never taught in my life. I have no idea how to do it. I went there the first night and I was like man. It was at that moment I realized that, wow, I know a lot, and it was simply from being on the job for all those years that you really don't realize how much you retained and what made it different was, you know, working with drug offenders, working with, you know, prisoners. You don't have a lot of success stories, more failures than success stories. And when.
Speaker 2:I started teaching, light bulbs were going off, they were asking great questions and I fell in love with teaching. So you know, fast forward another 12 years. And the latest position which I'm in right now is director of corrections, is actually a political appointment. I was asked by the county executive of the county where I reside if I'd be interested in the position. I thought about it a lot and decided that. You know what.
Speaker 2:I think this is a good time in my life. I'm coming on the tail end of my career. I think I want to kind of give this a run and apply everything that I learned over the years Right. So now I'm sitting in the exact same seat where I actually interviewed back in 1989. So it's kind of surreal at times when I'm sitting on the other side of that desk. Sure, so I still have one foot in the door as a professor. So I'm still teaching with American Military University and then also running the Department of Corrections. So that's kind of the fast forward of how this all came to be. I just I've been very, very fortunate, and I say that all the time. You know the publications. If you don't mind, I could even go into publications, because that's even better story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, share it with us.
Speaker 2:When I was pursuing my doctorate degree, I took an addictions course and at the time I was the executive director of a drug and alcohol facility. So I tried to bargain with the university to get out of that class because I'm like, I actually oversee an agency in drug and alcohol. I know this stuff inside and out. This would be a wasted class, it would be boring. I lost the battle. I had to take the addictions course and when it came time for the final project I was looking for a good topic that no one really touched on and I was so tired of drug and alcohol things here and there touched on and I was so tired of drug and alcohol things here and there. I found an interesting article on sexual addiction to pornography and I'm like, okay, let me check that out. I wrote the final project. My professor at the time said man, this is really good, you should try to get it published. And I'm like, how do I do that?
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:And he gave me some tips on how to get it published. And I'm like, how do I do that? And he gave me some tips on how to do it. And about three weeks after the article published, I got an email from Frank Schmolliger, who was one of the leading authors in criminal justice, and he wrote to me and said hey, listen, I read your article. I really liked it. I'm about to publish a book called Crimes of the Internet and I was wondering if you would co-author. And I don't think I thought about it. I think it was like three seconds later I'm on it.
Speaker 2:I just type yeah, and then afterwards I was like oh my God, how do I write a book?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So that's how it started and after that it just it kind of like spiraled. You know I did well so that first book and honestly dr schmolliger, um his name recognition and everything kind of ignited my career, if you would. So that's how I got into the publishing as well. So it's funny, all these uh successes that I've had I never really pursued. I just kind of fell into them and then, you know, loved them.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure. Well, I find it interesting and I also kind of feel the same way you said, after 12 years you didn't know really that you knew so much. Right, and I was kind of the same way. I was there, I was an officer, I was going to work every day and they kept putting me in positions, you know that were a little leadership here or a little leadership there. They kept putting me in positions, you know that were a little leadership here or a little leadership there, and they kept telling me, oh, you do a great job. And it was probably 12, 15 years in before I stopped and said I guess I'm a good correctional officer. I didn't think about it up till then. It was just, you know, going through the motions, going through the day, everything was the same, and so that was kind of what happened to me too. Up until that point that was just a job. And then when I realized that maybe I do know something here and that's when I got into, you know, local teaching at the institution level and then outside of the institution. So that's interesting. We kind of have that in common there that we didn't really realize what we knew, you know, and the experiences that you've had what they taught you, uh, until a certain point in that career. That's interesting, yeah, uh.
Speaker 1:Well, you're talking about publishing, so let me, uh, let's talk about this to start with, contemporary corrections, which is a new textbook. I got to take a look at it and, uh, it's. It's put together really well and, from a guy that's been in corrections more than 30 years, I was impressed by it more than I have been with other correctional textbooks. I think you really hit it on the head with a lot of the subjects and building up to where we're at today, kind of. But I like the title. So tell me, why did you pick Contemporary Corrections and kind of go into that? Because Corrections has changed over my 30 years. It's changed over yours, but why Contemporary Corrections?
Speaker 2:And that's exactly the reason why Most of the Corrections textbooks have like an intro or foundations of, or something of that nature like an intro or foundations of or something of that nature and they rehash a lot of the same literature that I read when I was 19 in college. You know, and I'm like some of this stuff is really, and from teaching I know what the students like and what they don't like. So I wanted to make this book more practical, Like I was looking at it like I need a book that's going to be useful. Ok, so you're going to learn a lot about corrections as a criminal justice student or even as an elective Sure. But, more importantly, if you are interested in this career, I'm going to prepare you for entry into this career and I didn't want to sugarcoat. So I wanted a book that was going to show the pros and the cons, the strengths and weaknesses, and I covered that. As you know, we have very high rates of depression, anxiety, cardiovascular disease, divorce, alcoholism and, of course, suicide. Our suicide rates are incredibly high and I want people to know that. But I just don't want to make it like a doom and gloom type of chapter. Then I introduce solutions. These are how you can kind of keep those symptoms at bay. You know you can avoid burnout. So it's based on science, it's based on Mike Patero's experiences, so it's kind of a combination of the two to make it a very practical, useful book. It is definitely unique.
Speaker 2:I must have read 10 other books I guess you could call them my competitors, Right subject matter than all of them, and that's what I'm particularly proud of because I venture into, for example, you mentioned earlier female offenders. You know, females make up seven, eight percent of the entire US prison population. So most book chapters or most books focus only a couple pages on it. I dedicate an entire chapter because, even though they represent seven percent, there's unique challenges that we face in corrections, in dealing with female offenders. There's different pathways that they take to get into the criminal justice system and there's different ways that they need to essentially survive during reintegration.
Speaker 2:Um focus heavily on mentally ill. As you know, um the number of mentally ill offenders has increased by like 500 percent over the last couple decades. So we have more mentally ill individuals incarcerated than we do in psychiatric facilities. So I really want to to promote that to so people know about this. I didn't want it to be all like most of the books for university students. They're all positive, but I'm like okay, here's the negatives though. So you're prepared, and this way, when you enter this profession, you're ready to go, You're ready to rock and roll. So I'm really happy with the book. I have to say. I mean, I think every author would say something like that, but I really am happy the way it turned out and it's been getting great reviews, and that makes me even happier.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I've read a lot, I've got a lot of the books and to me. You know you go back and you take a look at Sanford Bates. You know Prisons and Beyond 1930. And they're all written back then about prisons and you not only just, like you mentioned you talked about special populations, but you also go into jails and I don't. You go into most of the tech books. That was textbooks that we see about corrections and they're not talking about jails, they're not talking about probation and parole, they're not talking about know you kind of um. I found it interesting because your book covers not only from jail to sentencing, prison, special corrections, population, probation and parole, parole and then recidivism and corrections. Has expanded from the 1935 Sanford Bates peniology. Do we even have any peniologists anymore?
Speaker 2:Is that even a thing? Yeah, exactly, that's not even a thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's what corrections used to be, and you took it from sentencing or, you know, jail all the way to recidivism, and that is where corrections is at. These days, we're touching all of that, including the special populations with the mental health, so that was one of the things I really liked about your book was bringing all that in there and talk to me a little bit. You've been around for a while. Talk to me a little bit about the difference between what jails are facing these days and what prisons are facing.
Speaker 2:I mean similar challenges. I've only had two that ended up in those positions there. So I was trying to look at the bigger picture, like where are you going to be more employable at Right? But jails are important because we're facing a lot of the same challenges as your state prisons. But jails, as you know, can be a little bit crazier at times because you have that high turnover there. High turnover there's very rarely any stability of any um sort there, sure sure um, you know I ventured into covid and you know MRSA and talk about.
Speaker 2:you know the things that kind of plague the jails, um, are also found in our state prisons. But trying to kind of address both so that they both got their own fair share, I guess you could say, of information being out there. But I wanted to touch on that because, like you mentioned, there's very few courses that really delve into jails and the books talk about it briefly, but that's about it. And when they do talk about it, though, again it's more from a historical perspective and honestly, a lot of students don't care about that. Yeah, of course I'm going to go. You know the Cook County Jail and you know Eastern State Penitentiary. I'll do the progression, but I like jump 100 years each time. So it's, I don't drown them in history, but more in the practicality of it.
Speaker 2:I think it's a lot of 1960s to present day, because 1960s is where we saw a lot of the changes in the criminal justice system.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:With the Supreme Court rulings and law enforcement, everything. So really, from a historical perspective, anything prior to 1960 was kind of minimized. And then I really focused on that because I think that's where the kind of the meat is at is 1960s to current day to also see how we got here, you know with the war on drugs and with three strikes and everything. So I think it came together really well, showing that and I also want to emphasize that you know, some individuals outside of criminal justice don't realize that jails can be just as dangerous, or more so. I have friends who are shocked when we find out that you know you commit a quadruple murder. You've got to go stay at the local jail until you're sentenced. And people are like what?
Speaker 2:We thought they were going to write to the state penitentiary. I'm like no, absolutely not. Not until you're convicted. So I wanted to kind of educate my students but also the public. So I wanted to kind of educate my students but also the public and I'm very fortunate because Walmart picked up the book and as well as Target. So that's good, because then it opens up to your just general readers who might be interested, which is really unique for a university textbook to step outside of that college arena.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, you know one of the things and it kind of goes into what we were talking about that, the difference between jails and prisons. You were talking about mental health. You go to a jail. The mental health they're dealing with are wholly untreated, right, they've either not been treated recently and they're completely off their meds or they're probably not following it. And then once they get to the state or feds, which is where I've been worked and specialized in, you know, we may have a mental health housing unit, we may have mental health all in one area, nurses assigned to them, checking their pills, doing this. That's really hard to do in a jail. So they're dealing with people with, when we talk about mental health who are just off the hook. I mean, you know what I'm saying there, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's a tough group to work for and even though the training for officers and staff has improved, we're still not really fully trained into dealing with this population and I'll admit that's one of my weaknesses. It's a tough group to deal with. But you know the facility that I oversee. We have an entire unit, yeah, dedicated to those with some very significant mental health problems that do things that are just odd and quirky, you know. So it's very difficult to manage that particular population, so there's definitely a breakdown in the system there. I'm an advocate for getting psychiatric hospitals back intact because a lot of these individuals they'll spend months upon months in jail waiting. Then they go there and get time served.
Speaker 2:And the reason they waited so long is because they had to get stabilized by their medication to understand the proceedings, sure. So there's a lot of um cracks in which these individuals can fall into, and it makes it really difficult. Then you got to find housing for them. And where are they going to go? You know, some places won't take them, some shelters won't take them, based on past behavior.
Speaker 1:So it's more difficult than a lot of people imagine, but it's a very, very challenging type of criminal offender in your article on psychology today, you said today, nearly half the people in the us jails and more than a third of those in uS prisons have been diagnosed with a mental illness. That's huge.
Speaker 1:It's very huge you know, every other person, every third person you're dealing with, and I spent 14 years at the Federal Medical Center in Springfield, missouri. We have some of the worst federal inmates, mental health wise, and unfortunately, what I saw was us getting inmates great doctors, great psychologists and psychiatrists get them medicated. You got nurses who make sure they take it three times a day, like they're supposed to, and they almost live a normal life. And then they're eligible to go to the streets because they've done their time. We've we've got them acting right. And as soon as they walk out in the streets because they've done their time, we've we've got them acting right. And as soon as they walk out in the streets, they have this. Uh, you know well, I don't need this, I didn't need those pills. They quit taking it.
Speaker 1:And then I'm getting calls from a local sheriff. Do you know this guy? He didn't have any identification on him except for a inmate ID. What can we put in the middle there, you? What can we put in the middle there? You know how do we monitor? And you're right, we don't want them in the nursing home with our grandmothers.
Speaker 2:No, so how do we?
Speaker 1:have this in between. What can we put in place there?
Speaker 2:We need I mean I shouldn't say this, but I mean most of it depends on the communities where they're going to. I live in an area that's dubbed the Lehigh Valley. It's like multiple cities, and so there's a lot of resources and programs available for those being released, whether it's substance abuse, mental illness, so forth. But if you go 30 minutes north of where I live now, you're in the mountains and there's no transportation, housing or those programs or resources. So that's where there's a huge breakdown, I think, where we are kind of rich and plentiful with resources and programs, we do a good job and we've created that seamless continuum from prison to the community. We now partner with community-based agencies and that has improved and increased since the early 2000s.
Speaker 2:So I would say much depends on where, but for a good portion of them, you know, if you go 30 minutes one way or another, you're in a different time world. If you will, you know, and they don't have the luxury of doing so. But, like you mentioned, it's getting them to continue taking their medication and going to these appointments, and a good portion of them and I don't know the exact numbers but they just don't go, you know, or forget, or sell their meds or lose them, whatever the case may be, and next thing you know they're picked up by the police on something that's typically a nuisance type of crime.
Speaker 2:And they end up there. We go six months, nine months, before we resolve that issue again. So it's like a revolving door and I think it's burning out the police just as much as the courts and corrections as well, right, and the jails?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they're dealing with that all the time. Yeah, um, another thing I saw were what I considered low level or I don't want to say minor mental illness, but it wasn't at the level of, you know, a violent, schizophrenic or whatever. But we'd get these guys in there with mental illness who were, you know, basically had the mentality of a child or something. Now you've put them in a violent prison, which prisons are? Whether people like it or not, this is a place where a lot of inmates go to become criminally educated. They get better at being a criminal, and same thing happens to our mental health. They're brought into that. You know they're taught how to be more criminal. Um, I, I, I'm like you. I wish we could separate our mental health out of our prisons again. You know they're taught how to be more criminal. I'm like you. I wish we could separate our mental health out of our prisons again, because I don't think it's healthy for them.
Speaker 2:I think we make criminals out of some people with mental health issues, sometimes Absolutely, and that's a good way of looking at it.
Speaker 2:Well, two things popped up when you were talking about that, the first being that mental health courts they work. They're just like the drug courts. So it's getting all the other jurisdictions though throughout the US to jump on board. So my county has a mental health court which addresses those issues there, so they can kind of supervise those individuals while they're in the community a little bit better than other counties that don't have that particular resource available to them. Okay, that's a really good thing, but it is definitely a broken system and it's it's really challenging group and all the research all the research suggests that it worsens their conditions. So it doesn't make things better, it doesn't make them the same. It will worsen things. Because now you don't like to be around people. You know, you kind of got that edge where you just don't like to be in closed quarters with people. Next thing, you know, we got you in with three other guys you know.
Speaker 2:So it really is tough because it really makes things worse for them. So we don't see a lot of progression, I would say, as far as them behaving better.
Speaker 2:Maybe the meds will stabilize them be a little bit more coherent, but for the most part it's a challenging group, particularly, like you mentioned, if there's some type of significant mental illness, Then it's a little bit more difficult to treat that person because you know they're typically resistant, they don't want to take it, they think we're poisoning them. You know there's all variations to it but yeah, it's a tough group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think the general public knows um what happens to mental health inside prisons. You know, not only are they criminalized, but they're also victimized. You know some of the stuff that happens to that population. If inmates were allowed to do that to each other and the inmates that could be vocal about it, or if staff did that to an inmate, the public would just go nuts. But because their mental health and they don't really have that much of a voice, and when they do speak up, people may not believe them, because they're talking about balloons as well as you know something else, so you don't believe them as much. You know something else, so you don't believe them as much. So I don't think the public understands what happens when we throw those mental health people in our prison system. It's just sad.
Speaker 2:Here's a perfect example. You have an individual who is cutting himself anything he could get his hands on. He's cutting himself any type of self-harm that he can do with whatever he has access to, which is limited but still Sure. So then, you know, we try to bandage up the wounds. You know, we try to, you know, address those concerns, and then the person tears apart the bandages and starts ripping at the wounds. And you know, next thing, you know, you got to put this individual in some type of restraint chair, some type of passive restraint system. Well, if you're an outsider looking in, you're like, oh my God, that's cruel and unusual punishment, sure, but then my response is always well, what's the answer? Yeah, I don't know what. I'm trying to keep this guy from harming himself. You know, and I don't, there's limited options available. I would love to invite them in I'd love to invite them in.
Speaker 1:We had an inmate that we built a stainless steel cell for. It's stainless steel. It's welded in the corners because he could take paint chips. He could rip off paint chips and cut himself. He was taken to the hospital I don't even know 50, 60 times so much that the hospital finally said I'm not cutting through the scars anymore because he had cut the same areas so much. And you're right. We end up putting them in four points, which is we don't do that in a bad way. It's done very, very controlled, you know, with a team that knows what they're doing. Put them in restraint chairs and the public thinks we're being mean, but we're keeping these people from from injuring themselves any farther.
Speaker 1:Exactly I'd love to bring them in and just say, okay, now what?
Speaker 2:what would you do. Right, I know that's what I mean. You know we're limited there. I mean you're dealing with somebody who is just determined to harm themselves. Um, you know, and they got 24 seven to think of different ways of doing so, you know, and then we end up you could assign an officer one-on-one, but you know, with officer shortages across the nation, that's not really feasible at times.
Speaker 2:I mean it has to be done, but it really hurts you as an organization doing so. So, yeah, there's a lot of areas that need to be controlled. Then also there's you got to watch as an officer. There's harm of being assaulted. Oh yeah, there's a lot of areas that need to be controlled. Then also, you've got to watch as an officer, there's harm of being assaulted, having some type of liquid thrown on you, whether it's urine, semen, feces, whatever the case may be. So it presents itself as a really challenging group to deal with.
Speaker 2:A lot of officers may not have the patience to do so.
Speaker 1:It does. It takes a special officer to work in there, because it's like working with two-year-olds, you know, not everybody can work in a child care center, because you'll go crazy, you know. And mental health, because it's, you know, four or five, six use of forces a day. Sometimes it was, yeah, certainly certain people.
Speaker 1:So, I think you and I talking, and hopefully this will bring an awareness to it. Let me, uh, pick your brain also. So you're teaching um students who are looking at going in corrections, and I'm always fascinated by this. Um, I love the fact that when I was young, I don't know that there was a place that you could go to get a degree, you know, in law enforcement, criminal justice, slash corrections. You could go law enforcement, but they didn't. They didn't cover corrections. So tell me what kind of students you're getting in there. What is it that they're looking for? Um, you know, the the sky's open to possibilities for people that want to go in corrections these days, you know. So what are they in there looking for?
Speaker 2:I think there's just a general wanting to help others. You know, to try to make a difference in someone's life and I want the same thing, you know, and I commend people with that mindset. But you know I, just when I teach, I want to make sure that you can't take it personally when people fail. You know you do the best damn job that you can do every day and you go home knowing that you did the best damn job that you can do every day and you go home knowing that you did the best damn job. But at the end of the day it's up to them to choose whether they apply what they learned and the resources that are available to them. Sure, so you know I always tell people set realistic expectations. You know you're going to have, unfortunately, more people that fall off the wagon and stay on the wagon. So it's a different type of demographic to work with and burnout is heavy. But you know I say focus on those ones where you are making a difference. People are listening to you, People respect you, so it doesn't come that often, but someone's going to thank you and you know you change the trajectory of their life, you know. From that point forward it's a good feeling. So we are making a difference and we are changing people, but it comes down to them.
Speaker 2:I always say change comes from within each of us. You know, everyone knows the dangers of smoking and you know everything that is associated with it. But people will still smoke. They will quit when they are ready to quit and make that change, you know. So we can provide them with everything they need to change and to be a better person. But then again, it's also out of their comfort zone as well. So you know, I want my students to also understand and that's why I always say like when I was an undergraduate student I'd taken psychology and sociology. I kind of looked at it like, wow, why do I have to take this stuff? I just want the good stuff. You know, I want all the courses on violence and stuff like that. But all those courses come to play, because if you understand how someone ended up in front of you, okay, behind those bars, you can understand how that happened. Granted, there are bad people in prison and jail, but there are also a lot of people that simply made bad decisions, bad choices.
Speaker 1:I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:There's one. I used to say this at conferences too because it stuck in my head, but it was a local woman. She was incarcerated for drug-related offenses, thefts, nothing serious, anything like that. But as I started talking to her, she was very articulate. She's well-spoken, she wrote well, and I finally had to ask her how are you here? You know, you just don't fit that stereotype, that image that we have. And it turns out that when she was 11 years old, her stepfather started molesting her. Now, that's not the worst part. The mother knew about it but didn't do anything. She turned a blind eye. So what does she do to repress these feelings? Alcohol, drugs. The drugs progress to heroin. Next thing, you know you need more heroin, but you have no money. Well, now I got a prostitute, I got a barter, I got to steal to get that fix. Next thing, you know, she's in the criminal justice system. And the criminal justice system I always describe it as a giant spider web. It's easy to get in but hard as hell to get out of it.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And so that is that's always stuck by me, because I always tell my students what if the stepfather was never in the picture and she had a good stepfather, it would have completely changed her life. And so some people are pushed into it. Some people are pulled into it that not everyone has the ability to make a decision, but sometimes those decisions there's other variables that play there with it. So I'd like to present to my students the human side of it.
Speaker 2:You know, to understand a lot of these individuals, their upbringing, you can see how they kind of fell into a life of crime, I guess you could say statistically. You know poverty quit school, dad's incarcerated, mom's a prostitute. You know you could kind of see how that works so they have a better understanding of dealing with people. And then also culturallyitute, you know you can kind of see how that works so they have a better understanding of dealing with people. And then also culturally, you know, if you're raised most of us that end up in college you're raised in a middle class upbringing but you're dealing with individuals that are in the low income brackets, you know. So you have to be able to kind of identify what their lifestyle is and not project your own onto them yeah, yeah, yeah, I did an interview.
Speaker 1:They had me in an inmate on an interview, uh, last year. And um, they said, well, you know, we talked for a little bit and they said, well, we're going to tell you what the inmate did, you know. And so they had the inmate tell me that he was in there for murder. And I was like okay, and she said you know that that doesn't seem like it surprises you. And I said I didn't grow up where he did you know. He grew up downtown, you know this huge city. He was a gang member since he was nine. I may have done the same thing in that situation, right, never knowing any better, you know, uh, luckily I, I didn't. And I, you know, I probably had the opportunity to do bad stuff over the years. But uh, people, it's a lot harder to crawl out of that than it is others. If that's all you've ever seen, if that's all you've ever known.
Speaker 2:Yeah, abnormal becomes normal. You know, you know things that we think you know, like smacking your girlfriend around. Well, you think that's normal because your dad did that to your mom, you know, and you've seen it done before. So you, you, that's the means to an end, that's what you've learned. So, yeah, a lot of it is really learning, social learning. It's really powerful that you know, especially when we're kids and young kind of tweens. You know, you're like a sponge. You absorb everything around you, everything that's said, everything that you observe, and so a lot of people become molded that way and that's the mindset that they get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. Being the is it commissioner or director? You're the director, director. So, being the director, what? And I know that one of them is going to be retention and recruitment. But what are some of the big things you're facing right now and how are you guys handling that? What are you doing to, you know, retain and recruit some of the best?
Speaker 2:It is. It's a challenge across the US. You know, trying to recruit and retain Corrections has typically been thought of as a stepping stone to other positions, particularly in law enforcement. I'm trying to change that. That, you know, make this your chosen profession. So it's not a stepping stone to do so. But retention is hard because you know it's a tough environment and I'll tell you what's happening locally.
Speaker 2:Here's my theory on it is that the corrections salaries haven't gone up significantly with inflation and everything else going on, yet warehouse jobs and a lot of those other jobs have increased significantly. So you can start at a county prison at, say, 40,000, 45,000, but you could also do the same thing at the Amazon warehouse. So where you're not mandated for overtime, where you're not assaulted, where you're not, like you know, verbally abused and all those things. And I think it's hard because you have to realize what you're getting into and there has to be something deep inside your belly that drives you, you know, do well in this profession because you are dealing with a very tough crowd in a tough environment, and so a lot of people I guess, as my young kids would say, they're not built for it. So you know, I think people like you and I, we were built for it. You know we just have a different mindset in how we do so. But I'm also stressing and if you've read, like a lot of the publications, I focus a lot on leadership is that a lot of the old authoritative, punitive, disciplinarian type of leadership doesn't motivate people at all, and so I'm trying to change that. You know, I'm trying to look at it from a transformational leadership approach. You know, as a coach and a mentor, I try to look at everything as lessons learned, rather than writing up the officer for something he or she did. What could you have done better? How could you have handled this? Obviously, depending on what happened.
Speaker 2:But trying to get out of that mindset, you know, because most people, the research shows that the individuals leaving corrections are not leaving because of the dangerousness of the profession. That's what most people think. It's not that. You know what it is. Leadership, yeah, comes up on every single survey.
Speaker 2:Leadership they don't feel like their leadership supports them, values them, um, back them, and people leave because they just don't want that, they don't feel valued, and so I'm trying to change that entire culture by showing them that, yeah, I am interested in you as a professional but also as a person. You know so if you're having something going on in your life I want to hear about, let's talk about it. You know so if you're having something going on in your life, I want to hear about it, let's talk about it. You know, now I can understand, I can try to work with you. So I think it's it's trying to build that trust that was never there for most of um. You know, between the line officers and the administration. There's always been that tension between the two and I'm trying to find a happy median there where we all kind of get along.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do think the administration was more distant when I was there, but then when you come down, we had and this is my opinion some people are going to balk at it but we used to have sergeants and lieutenants and captains that had leadership that I don't see anymore. They did come through, they did know who I was and why I was there and they were tough on you. Absolutely. I don't have a problem with that, but I knew that if something happened, that captain was going to give everything he had to get me out of there, and I don't think that comes across anymore. I think we've I think we've replaced true caring for your staff with pizza parties, and it doesn't work. Stop by, say how are you doing, and then stop long enough to listen to what they tell you. And you know, when I did rounds as a Lieutenant, we were required to go to each post in the evening and it was tough and sometimes I had 14 things going and I just didn't feel like I could get to all those posts. But when you're working a housing unit with just one or two of you and you don't see anybody else on an evening or a midnight post, when that Lieutenant comes through and gives you two minutes, it says how you doing and means it it changes everything about how you work. Yep, and once you change and I just had this conversation, I'll quit rambling here in a minute I just had this conversation with another guy and we were talking about leadership and he was talking about the leadership, the way it works. You know, we lead up, we lead down and people don't realize.
Speaker 1:In corrections we lead inmates, we set the culture for inmates and, like you talked, not all those inmates are violent, crazy people. Some of them are just people trying to do their time and they want an institution that has good leadership from top to bottom, right, because if it's safer for them, they're going to do more of the programming. They're going to do more of that stuff. There's going to be less shanks. I've seen that over career, depending who was in charge as to the, what the inmates felt and whether or not all of them were making shanks because they knew doesn't know what was going to happen tomorrow, or if just the violent ones that were the problems. You know we're out there making weapons. So, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It's leadership, it's culture. But we've got to change the narrative about how we see our staff, and I think you're spot on with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a tough one. I mean, you know, money-wise you could go elsewhere and make more money. There's no doubt you know it would be sugarcoating it and lying to you and if I said that that's true. But so you got to find, you know, some intangible reason why you're there. You know what's driving you to be there. You know I hope people tap into theirs to find that so that they stay in the profession, because it can be an awesome profession. Um, so, working on trying to change all that and I really feel confident in time I'll be able to make those changes. But it's also, you know, it's a tough culture to penetrate, so it's going to take a little bit more time than you know, your usual employment opportunity there.
Speaker 2:So I'm. But I think that we can definitely make headway and I wanted, I want people to see corrections as part of that profession in criminal justice. You know it's not the. You know the ugly stepchild this is. This is part of law enforcement in the courts. You know it's a respected position. I will be the first one when someone says guard.
Speaker 1:I'll be like they're not guards, they're officers.
Speaker 2:You know and try to like correct those. You know those stereotypes of what they think we do each day and like I'm like wow, you're way off. This is what we actually do in a day. You know so, to enlighten people. You know as to what goes on. You know we are counselors, we're teachers, we're enforcers, all wrapped up into one shift. And a lot of people don't realize that that you know. This gives you a great amount of experience in dealing with people. You learn conflict resolution without ever taking a course on conflict resolution. Absolutely. It's a really good working environment and it can work to your advantage and for me it's paid off and I want other people to feel the same way, like this. This can benefit you and you can make a career out of it, not just a temporary job until you get to something else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well. So what do you have coming up next? Anything in the pipeline.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my next book will be out next year and it's focusing more on special prisoner populations. So essentially, I'm dedicating each chapter to a particular demographic. So sex offenders, they have a chapter, elderly offenders have a chapter. So all that was special needs, special populations, whatever term you want to use because again, there's really no books that delve deep into what's it like dealing with elderly offenders.
Speaker 2:You know Pennsylvania has one, the uh, I think we're the second highest elderly prisoner population in the United States. Yeah, so you know it's unique, you know they're. They're subject to victimization, exploitation, assaults, you know. So, trying to understand them, they also have, um, you know I'm 57, but the research shows that when you're incarcerated, you have the health problems of someone 10 years older than you Sure, so I'm 57. I would have health issues of someone 67. So a lot of individuals don't realize that. So I go into describing what elderly offenders are and you know the things that are there about them, the challenges, but also then solutions. You know, um, for example, I did an article on compassionate release, which I know a lot in our profession. Go, oh, my god, that's soft and I'm like no, it isn't. It's actually smart when you think about it because if a guy is bedridden and he's been incarcerated for 35 years, and he can't get out of bed.
Speaker 2:He's got so many health conditions he can't even walk to the bathroom. No, what threat is he to the public? And all the research shows that after age 65 it's less than one percent recidivism rate. Less than one percent?
Speaker 1:sure, it's a no-brainer and look at the electronic technology that we have these days. If you're a little, put an ankle bracelet on them If you want to make sure they're where they say they're supposed to be and stuff. There's a lot of stuff. Have them check in with a zoom meeting once a day. I mean there's things that we could do technology wise to to make sure that they're not causing problems. But I've read the same stuff you have. Once they get past a certain age, you know you just don't have the problems with them.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely, and you look at New Jersey, for example, you're talking $75,000 for one elderly prisoner per year.
Speaker 2:That's insane Yep. So I mean that has to be addressed. I'm not saying, if you're like a convicted pedophile and you still have that kind of potential to do so, sure you know and you are a threat to the public. But if we put things in place like a psychological background investigation, we look at everything before we decide. But I think that some of these individuals need to be released. Um, I address females, I address substance abuse, obviously. Um, another one the LGBTQ community. There's hardly anything written on that, but yet we're seeing a spike in prisons with.
Speaker 2:You know the members of this particular group. How do we deal with these individuals? You know from an administrative position, from a correctional officer position, so I try to touch on things that no one is really touching on. That's one of the things I've been really good at with my career, is I always look for the gaps. I don't want to repeat something that somebody else repeated. I could go find that in 50 different spots. What are they missing? So I try to look for the missing parts and that's. I think that's really my niche.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the the things I've seen that you've published. I would absolutely agree with that. That's why I keep noticing your name. I was like there's an article people need to talk about that more. So, yeah, you're doing a great job at that. I look forward to seeing the uh, that next book. Um, I think it's an important book. I never chased it, but in the penitentiaries and places that I worked, it seemed like I was always dealing with one of those special populations. I think there's probably a lot of other people that have to go through that too. They're a challenge. Sometimes they take up your whole day. You can't get normal stuff done because you're dealing with one or two people.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, like you mentioned, you know, mental illness, but like, say, someone who has a really low IQ, you know, and they think like a child well, my God, that person is going to get eaten alive. So you know, I don't think people realize what we have to do to house that individual and to protect that individual, you know. So I've tried to touch on, I tried to think of everything.
Speaker 1:physically handicapped individuals you know, so I'm trying to like.
Speaker 2:Look at the whole big spectrum of kind, of those individuals that don't take up much of our prisons and jails but yet their numbers are rising and we still have to deal with them. You know, another one is a juvenile who's 15, committed a murder but now they're waved up as an adult. Great Punish them, but they're still chronologically 15 years old and now you're putting them in my facility and I'm like I got to figure out what am I going to do to protect this kid, because he still is a kid, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know.
Speaker 2:So you know a lot of people don't understand, like all the things that go into trying to keep a prison and or a jail safe and secure, um, not just for your officers and so forth, but between them themselves to keep them safe. So you know a lot on sex offenders, a lot on child sex offenders, so I really tried to hit the entire group of, I guess you could say, those outliers you know, ones that only come in infrequently, but yeah, when they do come in it's a challenge, Sure, sure.
Speaker 1:Well, I thank you for all the stuff that you do put out there for the public, for the correctional officers. Maybe next year I can get you back on here when you the other book comes out, sure, and we'll get together and talk some more about that. Uh, if somebody wants to reach out to you, get a hold of you, where can they do that at?
Speaker 2:I'd probably say my personal email. It's really easy. It's um crime, okay. So the word crime, the letter N as in Nancy, justice at P as in Paul T as in Tom D as in Davidnet. So crime and justice at ptdnet. I'm on social media too, so it's easy to track me down. You can look me up on LinkedIn and my email is there and everything.
Speaker 2:So, that's the best way. I'm on email almost 18 hours a day so I can easily respond back and be the best way to reach me Phone calls. Unfortunately, my my schedule's hectic.
Speaker 1:Right, right, well, I'll put a. I'll put your email and your LinkedIn and a couple other uh places that I see you on the internet. I'll put those in the show notes so if anybody wants those, they can look down there. Thank you so much for coming in and doing this interview. It's been fascinating and I look forward to talking to you next time.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Mike. I really appreciate this opportunity. This was a good time.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Have a great day you too. I would like to take a minute to thank one of our sponsors that make the Prison Officer Podcast possible. Omni RTLS is a company that I've been working with for the last year. I am proud to be part of this team of correctional professionals who have developed the best real-time locating system on the market today. With Omni's real-time location technology, you automatically know the accurate locations and interactions of all inmates, staff and assets anywhere in your correctional facility, and you have this information in real time. Omni is cutting-edge software for today's jails and prisons. It is the only way to monitor every square inch of your facility while still being PREA compliant. Go to wwwomnicom for more information and to make your facility safer. Today. That's wwwomnirtlscom.
