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The Prison Officer Podcast
The Prison Officer Podcast is a place where prison officers and correctional staff share their experiences, discuss leadership, cope with stress, and learn survival strategies for one of the toughest careers out there. Hosted by Michael Cantrell, this podcast delves into the lives, dreams, and challenges faced by those who work inside the walls of our nation’s prisons. It features interviews, insights, and discussions related to the unique and demanding world of corrections. Whether it’s overcoming difficult leaders, understanding rehabilitation, or addressing misconceptions about incarcerated populations, the Prison Officer Podcast provides valuable perspectives from professionals in the field.
The Prison Officer Podcast
85: Best of The Prison Officer - Greatness Beyond the Badge - Interview w/Michael Laidler
Have you ever wondered what it takes to transition from a Border Patrol agent to a federal corrections officer, all while becoming a renowned public speaker and author? Today, we sit down with Michael Laidler, whose journey in law enforcement began at just nine years old, inspired by the O.J. Simpson case. Raised in Miami by a single mother and grandmother, Michael's dedication to criminal justice saw him excel in various roles, from handling a Belgian Malinois as a canine agent to navigating the challenges of a high-security federal penitentiary. His story is a testament to resilience, adaptability, and the relentless pursuit of personal growth.
You can find out more about Michael by visiting michaelalaidler.com or connecting with him on Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube social media platforms under @michaellaidler.
Greatness Beyond the Badge by Michael Laidler
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Contact us: mike@theprisonofficer.com
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Take care of each other and Be Safe behind those walls and fences!
In more than 28 years of corrections, I have used or supervised Pepperball hundreds of times. Now, as a master instructor for Pepperball, I teach others about the versatility and effectiveness of this Pepperball system. From cell extractions to disturbances on the rec yard, pepperball is the first option in my correctional toolbox. One of the most dangerous times for officers is during cell extractions. Times for officers is during cell extractions. Pepperball allows officers to respond with the lowest level of force and still be effective and ready if the situation escalates. The responding officer controls where the projectiles are aimed, how many projectiles are launched and how rapidly they're deployed. This allows the response to be tailored to the moment. To learn more about Pepperball, go to wwwpepperballcom or click the link below in the show's information guide. Pepperball is the safer option first. Well, hello and welcome back to the Prison Officer Podcast. My name is Mike Cantrell and today I've got a really special guest. He's an author and a law enforcement officer for many years and I'm going to go to his bio here in the book.
Speaker 1:Michael Laidler has worked in law enforcement for nearly two decades. He's served with distinction in numerous positions and leadership roles, from police officer, border patrol agent to federal corrections officer. Michael's dedication to service shines in all he does. He holds an MBA from Moorhead State University and a BA from Florida State University. He's also a distinguished Toastmaster. For those of you that don't know what that is, we'll talk a little bit more about that. Michael has transitioned his career into training and educating law enforcement officers nationwide. He's highly sought after as a keynote speaker and facilitator nationwide. He's highly sought after as a keynote speaker and facilitator, and Michael's methods continue inspiring and developing authors to become better and in every regard, especially personally. It is his goal to impart the necessary personal development skills for officers to operate at full capacity in every situation. Welcome to the Prison Officer Podcast, michael.
Speaker 2:Good morning, Mike. I'm so excited to be here. You know I don't get too many opportunities to speak on podcasts that are related to corrections, and it's simply because corrections isn't always the sexiest, so to speak. Industry Law enforcement is not sexy in general, and then you have corrections. That's not as sexy. So I'm excited to be on your podcast. I've been looking at it for about a year, year and a half and obviously, as we've connected, it's allowed me to get more involved in your particular podcast. So I'm excited to be here. Let's get this party started.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, I've been following you too and you're out there speaking and we're going to talk about your book today, but I always like to start at the beginning. You know and I like to find out. You know where people came from and what got them interested in law enforcement or corrections, and I think you've got a very unique story with that. So tell us where you grew up and you know, what got you started in this profession.
Speaker 2:Well for me. I grew up in Miami, florida. A lot of people don't see it, but they could probably hear it if they hear how fast I talk. I've learned how to speak a lot slower because in Miami it's always rapid, rapid, rapid speaking. If you're not speaking quick, if you're not hustling, if you're not moving with the purpose, it's easy to get lost in the mix.
Speaker 2:I was born and raised in miami to a single mother and my grandmother raised me and my start in law enforcement was actually kind of unique because there was something that happened in 1994 as far as criminal justice law enforcement went, and it was actually an incident in california. So for the viewers, as you start thinking about it, think about june of 1994 in california. There was something that was really exciting, that was going on. Think about it for a second. All right, if you don't remember, let me tell you guys, there was this chase with this white bronco. Are we starting to kind of realize where I'm going with this? Well, if you're, if you're born after 2000, you probably don't know. But if you're, if you're born after 2000, you probably don't know. But if you were alive at any point in the 90s you definitely know about this case, it was the oj simpson chase that eventually turned into the trial the trial for me.
Speaker 2:I was nine years old at the time and I can remember being glued to that tv. When I say glued like, like I don't remember using the bathroom, that's how much I was into this. My family, we were watching the chase. We're watching the investigation. Then we started watching the trial and from that point forward I remember telling myself and my family that I wanted to be a homicide detective in la, and that's what started my drive. It was just everything about the, the, the weapon, the gloves don't fit, you must acquit Everything you could think of. It just got me into law enforcement.
Speaker 1:Right, wow, I don't know that. I've interviewed very many people that have that specific moment where they decided that's where I want to go. So after that point, you decided this is where I'm headed. Where did life take you through high school, college? Absolutely, you went to college. So tell me about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, exactly. That's definitely what happened on my side. From that point, as I continued to build my education in law enforcement in high school, I went to a magnet-type school that allowed me to take criminal justice classes. I went to a community college during that time, did something called dual enrollment. So even that point, I was starting to enroll in criminal justice classes when I left high school. Well, when I graduated, I just leave. But when I graduated high school, I ended up going to Florida State University and my initial degree, my initial concentration, was in criminal justice, and as I continued to progress, I was actually fortunate enough that it led me to my first career in law enforcement, which was a police officer for Tallahassee police, and that was at the nice ripe age of 19. So for me, I've been in law enforcement since I was 19. And that led me to different industries in law enforcement as far as obviously being a police officer, a border patrol agent and then, for the past 10 years, federal corrections.
Speaker 1:Okay. So when you started with the police department down there in Florida, how were some of those first months, that first year? Was it what you expected? What did you learn from that experience and becoming that police officer? You finally reached your goal. So were you happy with your goal?
Speaker 2:It's funny because, as I've reflected on my life, I was very happy at the time that I was given the opportunity to be a police officer so early Now. It wasn't in LA and it wasn't being a homicide detective right out the gate. However, it did feed that initial hunger to get in law enforcement. Being a police officer, being in a uniform, being on the streets taught me so many things as a young man. It taught me to be an adult a lot quicker. It taught me that I had to make decisions a lot faster and I had to make decisions for people very quickly faster and I have made decisions for people very quickly. I do believe a lot of my decision-making skills that I have now was cultivated back when I was at that age. So for me, it did really grow myself to, or it did grow me to be in that more well-rounded person that could make decisions and allowed me to grow in that manner. So for me, yes, it was good, but I think when I got the position, as I look back now because of some of my upbringing, that upbringing mean growing up in poverty. There's times when we didn't have a place to stay. I slept on couches, lived out of trash bags didn't have electricity, ramen noodles was the meal back then.
Speaker 2:For me, getting law enforcement and getting a job, it kind of put me a little bit on relax mode and for all those out there that don't understand what I mean, it put me in a mindset to where I felt like I had made it and it wasn't forcing me to have a great drive like I have today and it didn't really take me. It took me a while to kind of realize that having this career was going to slow me down. I just didn't know.
Speaker 2:So for me it definitely was fulfilling in a sense of I got into law enforcement but it also kind of slowed down my overall growth because I think it made me. It didn't really help build me to keep pushing myself extremely hard, but I loved it. I love being a police officer. I think about it sometimes right now like hey, should I go back to being a police officer? Should I go be like a chief of police or something like that? But then I look at the news and I'm like this isn't the greatest idea, so I'm just not going to do this yet. So for me, starting off early, starting off young and getting into law enforcement early definitely satisfied at least one part of my dream.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Since I've retired, I've thought that a couple of times Should I go back and maybe I could become a reserve deputy or you know something like that. And uh, and then I wake up in the morning and it takes me three times to stand up and I realize how bad I've been to my body over the years, and uh, so I might not be good at chasing bad guys anymore. But uh, um, so how many years did you do that For me?
Speaker 2:I was a police officer for four years A little over four years?
Speaker 1:Okay, yep, and then what was your next step?
Speaker 2:Then I had this burning desire to get into the federal government and I initially applied for the FBI. And for those that have tried to apply for the FBI or considering it, although I had a bachelor's degree when I applied, me having just a bachelor's degree and being a police officer wasn't what the FBI was looking for, and I don't to this day they still have a pretty similar mentality, meaning that if you are thinking about something like the FBI, get another specialty, like engineering or some kind of forensics or something like that, because they don't just want a criminal justice degree or a business degree and police officer experience. That's not enough for them, so you have to have a little bit different of an angle. So for me, that was what I was pushing for and then, when it was like, eh, you're not ready for what we're looking for, I transitioned to actually becoming a border patrol agent because back in 09, when I decided to go into that actually 2008, because it took about six months to do the paperwork and get in there was a big push for border patrol.
Speaker 2:When I started, when I was going through the academy in the summer of 2009 I remember june 29, 2009 was my first week there we were pushing out so many agents that we were having two classes of 50 agents starting a week, and that was going on several months before I got there and probably for about a month and a half, maybe two months after I got there. So I remember I want to say President Bush, I believe he had signed some law or he approved some special funding for Border Patrol. It was madness, so to speak, because they were pushing out so many people. So I went from being a police officer, then I went into Border Patrol, which was my next career in law enforcement.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what's some of the highlights from that? What did you see and get to do while you were in the border patrol?
Speaker 2:well, if anybody knows anything about the border patrol, it's a lot of chasing people at the border. So I, I was very fit, um, I did a lot of running, I did a lot of jumping, didn't do a lot of the fighting, which is good. I, I I want to say I did more fighting as a police officer than I did as border patrol, which was which. People don't think about it that way, but a lot of depends on where you're at, um, a lot of times, for me at least, I'm not built for fighting. Anyways, that's not really who I am. I don't want to get punched in the face or I. It's just not me and I and I I accept I can accept that. So for me it it was more chasing and not investigating, but kind of looking at different signs of deception, body language. But for me it was cool. I got that.
Speaker 2:But the most significant part of my time in Border Patrol, at least as an agent, was I became a canine handler. So about 18 months into the role as a regular agent I was given the amazing opportunity to have a work dog. I had a Belgian Malinois. His name was Rigo. He was a 70-pound, energetic beast, so we paired up very well. So for me, that was my highlight as a Border Patrol agent. As far as the different things I could have done, I didn't want to be on horse patrol. I didn't want to ride ATVs. I don't want to be on horse patrol. I don't want to ride ATVs. I didn't want to be on the Marine patrol. I got into the role I wanted to get into, which was canine and anybody that's had a dog man it's. It's an amazing experience and I was able to enjoy it before I left border patrol.
Speaker 1:That's how that's I if if I was a border patrol I might still be a canine handler. That's how much I loved it, yeah, yeah, I was a canine handler for the state of missouri bloodhounds and, um, yeah, that was one of the best times of my career. So, yeah, I absolutely know what you're talking about. So how long did you? Stay with the border patrol I stay with them how long were you with?
Speaker 2:coincidentally, about four, four and a half years as well, and I laughed at it because, as I looked at my time in Border Patrol, I was like all right, so you're going to stay four years. Is this a trend? You stayed four years as a police officer, you stayed four years as Border Patrol. Now are you going to go to Federal Corrections, the BOP, and stay another four years? Four years wasn't the plan for any of them, it's just the way the timing worked out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, you were moving on. It's not like you were headed backwards or anything. You're moving up with each move. Um, tell me about your your first time in a federal prison, cause that's. You can be in law enforcement, you can do a lot of stuff, but when you first walk in and hear that grill slam behind you, that's a different world.
Speaker 2:What did you think then? It's interesting you say that because a lot of people that's in law enforcement I kind of took a backwards approach to getting to corrections. A lot of times you find people starting in the local jails, maybe the state prisons, and then becoming a patrol officer or a federal agent. For me it did go a little backwards, but it went backwards for the right reasons. First and foremost, the reason I left Border Patrol wasn't because I disliked the agency. It wasn't that I was having any problems with a supervisor. It was a family reason. I was in Laredo, texas, with me and my wife at the time, and she became pregnant with my son. So for us, we understood the value of having family, raising a kid and being in Laredo, away from all our family that was in Florida. We were like, no, this isn't going to work out. So, to be quite honest, I didn't know what a Bureau of Prisons. I didn't know what a Federal Corrections was until May of 2012. And that was because one of my friends actually let me take that back May of 2013 was when I found out about the Bureau of Prisons because one of our friends who's a marshal he had actually worked for the BOP years before he became a marshal. So he was like hey guys, you know, there's this thing called the bureau of prisons. You keep your federal time, you, you're able to transfer everything over. You don't lose that. Four years you already have in. And once I looked into it there was actually an institution that was close to my ex-wife's parents house. So once I went over there it was actually fcc colvin, which is in florida. Once I realized how close it was it's about an hour drive. So for most of us that's worked in federal corrections of the BOP, an hour drive really isn't nothing, because it's it's some of us. Some people drive more than that. I've never driven more than an hour at this point. Everywhere else I've worked it's been 20 or 30 minutes less.
Speaker 2:But I went from that transition and what I realized is that corrections is actually amazing. But for me it was completely different because as a police officer you're out there with a gun. You're maybe dealing with one, two people pretty, pretty consistently. You might go to a party or something like that or do crowd control, but that's not every day. And then obviously you have a weapon on you. You have a, I had a taser, I had a baton or ass at the time. So you, I had a lot of tools and the same thing with border patrol you're you're dealing with illegal aliens, um, in groups, but even that it's wide open.
Speaker 2:So you're right, mike, that first experience of walking into that prison was a little chilling, um, because although I was eight years in educated it, it didn't prepare you for that feeling you get when you walk into that front door. You go through that Sally Port, you walk through, you see it, you hear the gates closing behind you, and now it's you and hundreds of inmates. And then the institution I started at was a high penitentiary, so that was even more elevated. It wasn't like I was at a minimum security institution or someplace that violence isn't common. So you know that first feeling I was, my heart was racing a little bit, I was getting a little nervous, but not nervous because I was in fear of the inmates, it was just something different, because I had never experienced. So I was like, oh man, like how do I handle this? And then, obviously, over time it got over. But I know that initial feeling was like, oh crap, now it's not. Now I'm in here, what next?
Speaker 1:And I've heard, I've talked to some other officers who have transitioned from police work to, uh, corrections. And you know, in corrections we're dealing with people who are really good at manipulation and seeing through. So with your even your personality and stuff you feel naked, you know. And then you walk in and you've lost all your tools that you're used to having. So here's this, another level of it's just you. You get stripped down to just you and your verbal skills and your mind. You walk into prison. There's nothing to hide behind. Kind of Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:No, there isn't. You have to be. The main tool you have is your brain at this point and your verbal judo. It's funny because I tell people now I wish that everybody that gets into law enforcement and if your ultimate goal is not to be in corrections which is an amazing industry or part of law enforcement you should at least do something in the jail or corrections before you hit those streets, because all your only weapon, your only tool, your only resource is how well you talk to people.
Speaker 2:And you're talking to people that have already talked to law enforcement who knows how many times in her life. So it ain't like you're talking to sally may, that you go to her house and it's the first time she's ever called the police. No, you're talking to people that have talked to a lawyer. They've talked to police investigators before. They've talked to a judge, they've talked to a probation officer and now they're talking to you. So they've had a lot of law enforcement experience at some point, especially in the on the federal side, most people that get in the federal prisons.
Speaker 2:It's not like they just didn't do anything, like it's usually something that had to be involved. And then you get to that penitentiary level and most people that are in penitentiaries, I always say they've either done one thing that's really really bad or they've done a lot of things that are really small, but it's usually not their first rodeo coming to that level on average. So because you don't just automatically qualify for a penitentiary, there are things that every no matter if you're federal or state that you have to do to get to that level. So it's definitely a different type of atmosphere. It's a different tool I had to use and really really bring out, and it's been amazing being able to use that tool for the past 10 years because it's allowed me to even communicate with more groups because of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Corrections is one of those jobs where sometimes you can get lost, you know, in the shift work and then when you begin there, just getting to know you a little bit, I see the drive that's in you and the drive to do more and more and you're always reaching out trying to do something more. Do more and more, and you're always reaching out trying to do something more. So tell me about as you went into corrections did you deal with the slowness, the pace? For me it was somewhat the creativity. I didn't have the creativity that I could use at work, so that's why I had to reach outside of work in order to do some of that. Tell me your story about that as you've moved through corrections.
Speaker 2:So it is interesting and for those that haven't worked corrections or in it it's, it can be extremely slow at times. And it's weird. You said that while you're like well, I'm surrounded by anywhere from 120 to a couple of hundred inmates at a time. How can it be slow? Because once you have a system, because once you have a system, once you have a routine, the inmates know and you know, and once you gain that respect from the inmates, they're going to let you do your thing for eight hours, 16 hours, however many hours you work that day. So for me it was. It was a little slow, um, on a day-to-day basis, especially when I started out, but it was kind of cool because at the time I was in my last semester of my master's degree in business and in that particular course it was a leadership course and that was actually my it might've been my first time ever taking a leadership course. Actually, you know what it was and one of the things that it taught me was it talked about networking.
Speaker 2:I had never dealt with networking ever in law enforcement before, and even in any of my studies, because it's not a common thing to talk about in law enforcement. But you start going to these non-law enforcement industries and you realize how important networking is. So for me, early on, I had a great correctional training officer, a great field training officer named Heath Pryor. He's actually he's actually works in Coleman right now. Great guy, and it was one of the cool transitions because, as I was learning about networking, I had someone that was actually good at it and he and he took me under his wing and he was like okay, this is what you want to do. So for me, one of the very first things I was able to do was I was able to have a sit down with my current what my work at the time.
Speaker 2:she's retired, now tammy jarvis, and she had an hr background so she was extremely, she was extremely excited to find someone that wanted to push their career. So for me and this is probably the first three months I had to sit down with her I told her my aspirations. Um, it was a great conversation. She gave me a couple of different things to look at, um, but one of the things she did she challenged me not to just come to work and do nothing. She said, hey, always do more training, always figure out how to promote yourself, market yourself, and for me, it quickly allowed me to the to actually do that.
Speaker 2:Mike. Like it was actually kind of cool because although I was an officer starting out, I didn't stay there long because then an SIS job, which in the federal prison is an investigator position, came open and within six months, like by April of 2014, I actually was promoted to that role. So I went from maybe being an officer for six to seven months and people want to verify if they can, and I don't always talk about it until it's brought up but yeah, I went. I was an officer for about six, seven months, then I went to investigations and from there, boom, I was already in the game, because anybody that's been any kind of prison investigations. It never ends, it's just. It's just. It's just how it was.
Speaker 2:Then I went to become a lieutenant at a penitentiary. It's just how fast it was. Then I went to become a lieutenant at a penitentiary and obviously anybody that's been any supervisor role in law enforcement, you know that's intense. Then I went on being over internal affairs at the next institution I worked at, which was intense. But then, you're right, mike, as I sat there, I was like man, I feel like I need to be doing more, like what am I not doing? Then COVID hit. Then I was sitting in my house and I got another promotion at the institution running training, and I was like what else can I do? Like I felt like I still wasn't like fulfilling my calling, like I felt like I still wasn't doing enough. So that's when I started to get more involved in my speaking business, which I do a lot today. But, you're right, there was that level of hunger that stayed consistent throughout, even the prison side, because, you're right, there was always something more that I wanted to do.
Speaker 1:Sure, and I don't think people realize, even at a penitentiary and I worked at several penitentiaries and they were rocking and rolling places you can have a fight every day, but as a correctional officer that just becomes part of your day. That takes up 10 minutes, it takes up 20 minutes and then you move on with your day. So there was always, you know, kind of the work me and then there was the out of work me and I was so I was always reaching to find something to do out of work to keep my mind busy for the rest of those times. So you talked about your speaking. Tell me something about that. How'd you get into that and where's that taken you?
Speaker 2:Man. It's taken me so many amazing places and for me it actually started when I went from being an investigator to a lieutenant. One of the things that lieutenants do or if you're non-federal, you may be a sergeant or a corporal is that you actually do a lot of public speaking as a lieutenant. We don't call it that, but you're doing conference calls, you're doing recalls, you're doing different training classes as a lieutenant and as I entered that role, up to that point in my life which was this was about 2015, I hadn't had any formal leadership training, or not much, not at least on the agency side, any agency. And then I hadn't really had any public speaking training because really I had that fear of, oh, I'm never standing in front of people and speaking. But once I picked up that supervisory role, based on some of the stuff I already studied, I realized communication is going to happen and I had to make a choice Do I want to be a good communicator or do I just want to be someone that's just up there talking aimlessly? I chose the less work on my communication so for me, and it didn't happen right away, so it took me about a year to actually get into it, but my speaking abilities that were and that I realized I had started in about. It started in february 2016 when I joined toastmasters that's if you guys have ever heard of it, type in toastmastersorg. I get no kickbacks from them. I just love what their organization is about, but Toastmasters is an international education program focused on public speaking and leadership skills. You don't pay much a year for it, which is crazy, because I would pay a lot for what they offer, but that's actually where my speaking skills and my drive for speaking started. And then you know what I was like. You know what, mike, I was like. I like the speaking stuff. You know what I can see doing it, but I still didn't really have a path yet.
Speaker 2:So the next year, which was January, I want to or, excuse me, 2017, I want to say it was around February, march, of a former coworker, robert Melendez. He had started posting these really cool images of him speaking and different quotes and I was like hey, rob, what are you doing? Are you still a Border Patrol agent? What are you doing? He's like oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I joined this thing called the John Maxwell team and I am a very curious person. I love learning, so, for me. I went and looked him up and I was like, oh, John Maxwell, I read one or two of his books in the past, but I really didn't know much about him. So what he has is? He has a, a certification program that gives you the skills and the, the the data to be able to coach, train and speak.
Speaker 2:So for me, I was so curious and I obviously one thing I got to tell everybody things cost money. None of this was free on this side, so I spent a couple of grand and in July of 2017, I got certified in his coaching programs, speaking programs and training, and it was so motivational. The one program I went to. I was like you know what? I'm going to start a business in public speaking and in October of 2017, I actually formed Michael Laylor LLC, which now I do business as Michael Laylor Unlimited, as a speaker. But for me, that was the foundation of the. Speaking really came from the work in the prison system and becoming a leader, at least by title, and I was like I want to be a communicator, good communicator not by title but actual ability Absolutely, and that's that's got to help you at work as well as outside of work.
Speaker 1:Uh, just a little trivia note here Um, we had a uh, a former federal correctional officer on, I think it's been about 20 episodes ago, wally Long, and Wally is a national Toastmasters champion. So Toastmasters also has competitions and, if you know, that's a pretty big title to get and he's competed several times in that. I did Toastmasters many years ago when I was very young, for about a year and I think I got a lot out of it. You get to stand up and practice and speak in front of other people. So that is a great organization if you're looking into that. So tell me about John Maxwell. I mean, I've read the books and I've seen. You know that they hold that school and stuff. Well, just don't go into all of it, you know, but what were some of the highlights of what you learned getting to do that?
Speaker 2:You know it's funny because the John Maxwell program is so comprehensive that there's an analogy that I use. They give you so much information. It's like having a turnkey house, because if you say, michael, I want to learn more about communication, michael, I want to learn about intentional growing, michael, I want to train my team on fulfilling their potential, there's more than likely a John Maxwell program for it. And when I say that it's a completely designed program, it'll have a PowerPoint, it'll have a lesson plan, it'll have a PowerPoint, it'll have a lesson plan, it'll even have speaking notes. So you can literally I can go on his website, which I have lifetime access to as a paid member, and I can just go pull that whole curriculum. Right now. You can say, michael, at noon I need you to teach a four-hour block on leadership. We'll focus in on these areas and I'll see what programs are applicable. I can say, hey, mike, which one, which one sounds good to you? You'll say, oh, out of those 10 you just said that one sounds good. I will pull the curriculum off and I can teach it.
Speaker 2:So my biggest takeaway from the john maxwell team was there's a lot of things to take away from, but for the sake of time to take a purpose. For me, it's a turnkey house for information like you can, it's, so you don't have to sit there and say, oh, I got to create all this content which I do on my own now my stuff. But if you're a beginning speaker or you're looking at how to get into this industry, john maxwell certification gives you all these tools. Obviously it's his branded material. So if you tell someone for example, I did a leadership program recently with a book called put your dream to the test obviously you're about to buy okay, 30 of his books. Um, you're gonna buy his facilitator guides. You're gonna buy his master, um, as his uh participant guides. He's gonna provide the powerpoint, but it's gonna be still something. You're, he's still that. He still passive income, which is cool, from it.
Speaker 2:But, everything you use. After that, it's all you. You just got to make sure you pay his respect and you say, hey, this is John Maxwell material. Don't put your dream to the test by Michael Laitler. You can't do that. But most people don't care about it. Most people are like, hey, I just need this leadership program. So for me, the biggest takeaway was it gave me so much information that that you could just start teaching that same day.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, and I don't know that everybody realizes part of learning to be a good speaker is being able to uh take that topic or that class and teach it to different groups. You know that is one of the things you learn as you move into that, and so that sounds like that's what they're allowing you to do, is not have to do the back work and bring your skills to the table, which is the speaking and the instructing and being in front of a class. So I actually learned a lot of my skills from the Bureau of prisons, cause you know as well as I do, with annual training and all the training we do, uh, you may get snagged.
Speaker 1:If you're a good instructor, they're going to snag you and go hey, you're teaching today at four, you know, at two o'clock, uh, you've got 60 people in here. Uh, so you, you get a lot of that. So at what point did you decide that I've got your book here? Greatness Beyond the Badge the Three Key Principles for Self-Awareness by Michael Laidler. Tell me a little bit about your book and what made you want to become an author.
Speaker 2:You know, it's actually kind of funny because I opened my business in 2017. I have some speaking engagements in 2018, a lot of pro bono work, you know, trying to test the water, seeing what I was good at, what I what I wasn't good, because even working with the bureau of prisons, you know your audience, you know the material, you know what you're going to be teaching, but as an entrepreneur, you're going out to a whole new world. You don't, as an entrepreneur, you don't know who's going to like you and who doesn't Like. So it's it's. It's a different type of battle. Once again, in the prison system or any organization or agency that you're working in, you know who's going to be there. You know people have to show up because they. It's a requirement. As an entrepreneur, you have to learn to bring people to you and that's the thing. Different things like marketing and speaking to the right person. So for 2018, that was a lot of what I did. And then, when I took my promotion in 20 at the end of 2018 and 2019, I only spoke once professionally outside of the bop in 2019, and then um covet hit, which was 2020, 2021. I did no speaking at those two years. So, out of a three year period. I spoke once and it was the summer of 2021 where I was sitting around my house and I don't remember the day, but I was like, what am I doing? Like, why am I not using the skill that I've been working on for years to help other law enforcement officers out? Why am I not building people's leadership skills up in other industries? So I create a presentation.
Speaker 2:Initially it was a presentation on self-awareness, because I looked at, I looked at our climate of what was going on law enforcement. Obviously we had the george floyd incident that happened not too long before that and then I just saw our numbers going down because when kobe hit if you had any, if you were on the fence about being outside or working from home, a lot of people realize they'd rather work from home now and that you can't do field work in law enforcement from home. Like you can do certain roles Obviously there's roles for that but being around inmates, being around the citizens, you can't do it from a camera, you can't do it from your phone, you have to be out there. So our numbers started dwindling. I started to realize all the pressures and for me, like I said, I like I was just paying attention. So I thought you know, what can I bring to the table? And that's when I created my presentation on self-awareness. It was actually initially called the invisible law enforcement officer the three key principles for self-awareness and I was like you know what? That's kind of long, it's kind of it's kind of different.
Speaker 2:So I started doing the presentation, um, kind of starting in 2022, and then I was listening to a podcast, um, for a certain company I was working with at the time and it was kind of cool because one of the guys came on there, a guy named Chandler Bolt from the self-publishing school, and he was like I could publish your book in 90 days or less. Now, remember, entering 2022, I had no intent on writing a book whatsoever, like that wasn't on Michael Laitler's radar. I was like, eh, book writing I like books Doesn't mean I want to be an author, like that. So in march of 2022, I heard his podcast and I love challenges, as I've mentioned several times, I love learning new things. So I ended up reaching out to their company.
Speaker 2:Obviously, there was a I'm not gonna even say a nominal fee. There was a fee, because if I say nominal, you may think it was cheap. It was not cheap. It was several, several thousands of dollars to kind of get that. So keep sure let's keep it. If you want things done right, you do got to pay. It ain't free. Just like if you want to be a speaker, you shouldn't be speaking for free, not a lot?
Speaker 2:Um, so in march of 2022, I took this idea, this concept, this presentation I had already been giving and I said you know what, let me put into the book. So every morning for about 45 days, I woke up and I transcribed my book into Google Documents. And it was kind of cool because I was truly focused and everything. And after those about 30 to 45 days, my transcript was ready. So from that point forward, I did all the other. They helped me with, like, the front cover, the Amazon stuff, the stuff you see right now putting it in the book.
Speaker 2:And on July 26th of 2022 was actually when I published the book on Amazon. So for me, initially, becoming an author wasn't the number one thing I wanted to do, but since I've done it, it's been so amazing, mike, it's been so cool. Like you have your book, you know how it feels like being able to leave that legacy. Yeah, no matter what, I have a book, I mean literally I don't have to write anything else, and that book can end up in a shelf in 2050 because it's already out there.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it will, but the fact that I put it out there, I put my thoughts on the paper and for me and this is kind of a buzzword, but I love to use it it was transformational for me, because it gave me the confidence that I could write better. It gave me the confidence that I could reach people that I may never reach in any other manner. And I've even been able to give the books out to different agencies. And when I say give, sell, let me clarify I've been able to sell the books to other agencies. There's even been one state agency that bought 800 copies because they wanted all their staff to have one. So it's cool to have that out there.
Speaker 2:So, for me, just having the book was, uh, even heightened my self-awareness because it made me learn even more about it. Like because I was like you know what, if I put this information in the book, it has to be. It can't just be my opinion, it has to be my stories, but I want to make sure I have the facts to go with whatever I'm talking about. So for me, having the book, publishing it, bringing it out, it's been about. So for me, having the book publishing it, bringing it out. It's been life-changing for me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, that's great. Well, I've read your book and I do enjoy it. You know you talk about the self-awareness aspect and one of your little I don't know if you call it a drill or a practice thing but I found it really interesting and I found it current and that was the selfie mirror method you know. So tell them a little bit about the selfie mirror method. I think that's a good way. I used to stand in front of a camera when I was learning to speak and I would record myself and then go back and look at it, which is hard to do it really is to look at yourself doing that. But tell them about your little method there of gaining some self-awareness.
Speaker 2:So for me there's a couple of aspects for the selfie method that I like. The premise behind the whole concept of that method is identifying yourself as a person. For me that was kind of the driving force, because a lot of us identify ourselves as a title, like you will say, oh, you'll meet somebody in public and say, oh, I'm officer mike cantrell, I'm captain mike lance mike cantrell, I'm lieutenant michael lateler. Well, for me it was more of how do I flip the narrative? So what I was telling people to do, at least in part of that selfie method as I built it, was take your phone, look at yourself and identify yourself as your first and last name, the name you were born with, then your title. And it's crazy how that psychological method really changes how you think about yourself, because before, when you say your title, that means that's your image.
Speaker 2:But I wanted people to start like forcing their image to be them, like I wanted them to say you know what? I'm michael laylor, I'm mike cantrell, I'm joe smith, and then I do this like I don't. I want people to flip it and that's kind of where that came from. It was kind of cool because when I first started doing it I'd done it in a few conferences and a few different trainings People were like huh, I always introduced myself. And now I find myself listening for people to say, oh, I'm Sheriff this and I'm like wait, wait, wait. I'll say wait and they're like wait, what I was? Like I want you to identify yourself as your first and last name. Then tell me you're a sheriff.
Speaker 2:Don't, don't tell me that your your title first, because you get too lost in that, because at some point we all lose our title, our work title it's whether you retired, resign, transfer. I can tell you three different agencies, multiple positions. That title I had before I left. Same thing with you, mike, you know a what your title is, what you were when you were with the bureau of prisons, when you were with the state um corrections over there. That's what you were as a title.
Speaker 2:But who you are is who you are, throughout your whole life, the same Michael Laylor that loved that OJ Simpson chase back in 1994, it's the same Michael Laylor that loves that chase, even talking about in 2023. I'm that same person. I've had a lot of titles good and bad titles it depends on what inmate or citizen I was around. I had a lot of titles after that too, but it was definitely something that I really wanted people to emphasize when it came to their identity. I wanted people to relate to themselves first, before they related to any industry or any organization, because to me, that's important.
Speaker 1:It is important and I guess I'm just learning it and that's part of the reason why it hit me so hard because, you know, not only in the Bureau of Prisons but the federal government and law enforcement, we tend to introduce ourselves with a resume. We don't just introduce ourselves. I mean, it's always hey, I worked at, you know, I started at Leavenworth as an officer, I went here as a lieutenant and then I was a captain, you know, and retirement has really thrown it back in my face a little bit, because I don't have those titles anymore and I was used to having a title. But we tend to do that a lot. So I think that's why that touched me in this book is because I'm actually working through that, trying to. You know, I've just kind of changed, I guess Now I'm podcast host and author, but that is something I've been looking at and doing that, that self-reflection. But I think that's a great little to be able to hold that phone up and look back at yourself Cause we're so used to taking pictures with the phone, um, of selfies and things that are going on to hold that phone up and you be the only one in the picture, look back in your own eyes and see who you are is a very interesting exercise.
Speaker 1:Uh, that I found out of your book. Um, you know you talk about a lot of communication and stuff. Um, listening skills, which is, uh, you know new correctional officers are always asking me I get emails, you know, pretty regularly hey, what, what can I do? You know how can I be a good rookie, and it all comes in corrections and in law enforcement. It comes back to listening. But once you learn to listen whether it's at work or whether it's outside of work you learn so much more about the people around you, and so I think that's an important part of your book. So, talk to me a little bit about you've been doing some speaking engagements that are just amazing, you know, and tell us a little bit about what you're doing now and how that's going.
Speaker 2:Well, one of the cool things about writing a book is that you want to practice what you preach. So some of the things I talk about in my book, first and foremost, is getting a mentor, getting a mentor in multiple areas of your life, because mentors have been where you're trying to go already. So for me, I've had some really great mentors um, whether it's being a speaker, whether it's being a father, whether it's being whatever you want to, it's being a father, whether it's being whatever you want to call it, and some of these mentors have showed me, have laid a foundation, have laid a path for me, and I was like, hey, if you do this, this and this, it'll help you walk down a lot smoother. So some of these mentors have showed me how to be a successful speaker. Now there's a lot of things I still work on, and when I say successful, that just means I'm getting speaking engagements consistently. It's not easy, I can tell you. Yesterday I probably spent three hours give or take, throughout the day just looking for speaking engagements, reaching out to people, telling people, reading emails, people saying no, we don't want you. People saying do want you, so being all over the place. So for me, as as I've grown my speaking engagements. That I know and you're right, I have been doing very well the last 18 months just because I've been putting in that work.
Speaker 2:I mean, what people don't understand is being an entrepreneur, having a business. It's not the government, it's not the federal government, it's not the state government. It's not the federal government, it's not the state government, it's not the municipal government. You have to go out there and work for all of these different things. You have to be willing to go out there and sacrifice sleep, one of the things I don't know. You guys don't know, but I was telling Mike before we started. I said I'm on three hours of sleep right now, not because I wanted to, it's just because I was trying to finish an online course. I was working on a flyer for a future speaking engagement. I'm going out of the country tomorrow.
Speaker 2:So, being an entrepreneur, you have to also have that work ethic, because nobody's just coming up to you, especially out the gate. I don't care how good of a speaker you are. I don't care what your title is in the government, at your private organization, it doesn't really matter. If you're not going out there consistently, you're not going to get consistent work. You may get one here and there that falls in your lap, but that's not going to keep the mortgage paid every month, that's not going to get your car. No, that's not going to put groceries, and all those people still ask for money.
Speaker 2:So being at that right speaker, um, for, for me it's definitely taken a lot of work, a lot of effort, but, just like the book, it's been refreshing. It's allowed me to kind of have a hobby, which is kind of weird. People are like, well, one of your hobbies. I'm like, well, public speaking, and they look at me like, really Like most people, we don't even want to do this. I said well, well, for me it's been refreshing because I also get an intrinsic reward from it. Like you said, I love the fact that people are reaching out to you, mike, by email and they're asking you different questions on communication, because for me, when I speak and I see that look in their face or they come to me later and say, hey, you know what, michael, we really appreciate, appreciate the presentation, even if it's one person out of 300, that feels good to me because I'm like you know what I at least I was able to at least impact one person. So the speaking side and the ability to communicate is an amazing feature to have so long story short. Yes, when it comes to speaking, um, I have. I've had a lot of opportunities and it's been a lot of work, but but each one for me is fulfilling. And, don't worry, I still have fear.
Speaker 2:I was speaking in another country last week. I was in Central Asia. Mind you guys, I've never been to Central Asia before. I didn't even know that my speaking career would lead me to that. But I had mentors, I networked, I did what was in my book, as I suggest to do, and it led me to Central Asia to speak to a group of delegates and they only spoke Russian. And the cool part about it, or the interesting part about it, was I don't speak Russian. There was translators in the room, so I don't want y'all saying well, michael, how many languages do you speak? I speak English and a little bit of Spanish, and when I say Spanish it's usually when I travel, because it's part of survival mode.
Speaker 1:So for me right, right.
Speaker 2:so for me, the um, the speaking, really showed me even more about myself, because I mean, like I said, I always have a little bit of fear. I mean, I remember the first hour of that presentation and I know, for me, usually when I speak, especially publicly, usually my back sweats. I know this, I, and I've adjusted to this. Like, if I feel sweat going down my back, it's normal, for for me, I don't want it, but I can't stop it, which is fine were dialed in. They were paying attention to what I was talking about. I even had one guy and this is only a small group of 25, he actually reached out to me saying, hey, I want to learn more about this leadership, some of the stuff you taught about.
Speaker 2:So for me, and being a speaker, although it's a lot of work, it's very fulfilling, and I know, mike, you definitely feel the same way because you're in retirement mode. I mean, you don't have to do anything else. Obviously, your energy and what you want to bring to the table won't let you. But speaking is definitely something and even if you guys want to call speaking instructing whatever term you want to use, it's all the same. If you're standing in front of somebody speaking that's public speaking. Let's just take that off the table. It's definitely been fulfilling and being a professional speaker has allowed me to go a lot of different places this year. I want to say, because I do have to navigate and balance a full-time job, I want to say I've traveled eight times this year so far which, like I said, having a full-time and doing that has been a balance. Two of those trips have been out of country speaking engagements, so the other six or seven have been within the United States excellent.
Speaker 1:Congratulations on that. I think one of the fallacies about public speaking for those of you that are getting into it. Michael touched on it. You know I teach all the time and I'm speaking pretty regular around the country and people think, well, you are not scared. I'm just as scared now as I was when I first started. The only difference is I learned how to control what you see when I'm up there, but I'm still nervous. I'm still wondering the whole time.
Speaker 1:You know I can't tell you the number of times I've went and spoke or or taught a two day class and and I get done and I'm like, did they get it? You know cause? Especially law enforcement. I'm going to tell you something about law enforcement. You guys can sit there with a blank stare for two days and not give me any feedback on stage. So I'm always wondering. And then you'll walk out of class and they'll all walk up to you and you know, here's a patch, here's a coin, thank you for what you do really got something out of your class and I'm like I didn't even know I did it.
Speaker 1:Well, you know. So no, so if you're getting into public speaking, don't think that you're going to have this point where you're no longer nervous. It's learning to control those nerves and learning to give that good class and engage with people, and I think that's the best part of it, isn't it? The number of people correctional officers, law enforcement officers that I get to go out and meet is just phenomenal these days. I mean several hundred a year. Different people and different stories and and different backgrounds, and it's just that's the rewarding part for me. Is that connection? How about you?
Speaker 2:Not your man. I tell people and that's why and I think that's part of the therapeutic side of of of the speaking, because you're right, like, like, I spoke to, like okay. Okay. So back to the trip I had last week, um, and if this, I don't know when this is gonna air, but let's say the trip I had in the beginning of august. The first day I was there, we did something called a cultural day, so the delegates and another about 20 of us, we went horseback riding.
Speaker 2:I don't ride horses, mike, that is not michael laitler. Michael laitler does not sign up to ride horses. I don't fear them, I'm just not excited about them. Like, I've never had any negative issues but in 38 years of my life that was my second time horseback riding. Second time, oh wow, I did fine, I didn't fall off. I mean, I had a good time. But those experiences, like experiences like I will remember that and it all started because of public speaking.
Speaker 2:If I wasn't a public speaker, I wouldn't have been in that group to go on that event and then meeting the people, the culture, the different foods, um, and that's even different foods domestically, I mean, I and mike, I don't know how many places you live. But one of the things that I grew to love which I didn't know I would like was crawfish. I didn't know about crawfish until I moved to Louisiana years ago. In Florida we have crawfish and other people call them crawdaddies depends on what part of the country you're in. I would have never known about that, but through some of these speaking engagements I love the go, because the first thing I'm like, take me to your local restaurant. I want what the locals eat. I want to go. If you guys are known for hot dogs, hey, I want to go get that hot dog from that stand. If you're known for ribs, hey, I want to go get ribs from your favorite place.
Speaker 2:But that comes through public speaking and being able to kind of expand and go into different areas. I know, mike, you said you've been on the road for a couple of weeks now. I hope you got to eat at some of these random places because it's cool. It's like you're getting paid to travel, meet people and learn new experiences. And then obviously when you vacation like I'm taking my vacation out of country for a week I'm going to learn that as well. But on the professional speaking side, most of your speaking engagements, especially if you grow 5% for a go for five. If you grow up 5% for a speaker, you're going to have to leave your current city. There's going to be no matter what. If you want to do any kind of expansion, you're going to move and not move, you're going to travel outside of your local driving area. So if you're looking at being a speaker, you're looking at learning different areas. You're excited about learning different people. That's one of the unwritten or unspoken benefits. You're just going to meet people because that's just part of the business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely One of my little tips or tricks about traveling. So there's a TV show called Diners, dives and Drive-Ins, I think it's called.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Go ahead. When I go to a new city I bring that up and I go back through their map and I'm always looking, because he picks out some pretty off-the-road places to go eat.
Speaker 2:Oh, he's finding the local places too. He's finding the local places or where the good chefs have been or the good. So yeah, I was going to say that is a place I check as well. If the locals don't, or if they're like we don't really know, I'll pull up that website quickly because, you're right, the food's been amazing in all those places I've gone to.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. I know you got to get on the road today, but I've really enjoyed this conversation. I'm going to, when you get back, I to get together and and I want to pick a topic and you and I talk about a couple of topics and now that we've learned about you, but tell these guys where, uh, where they can find out more information about you or and where they can contact you absolutely so for me.
Speaker 2:And before I say it, mike, I will tell you that you guys, mind you, me and Mike have just been started talking the last couple of months or so. I love your take on the in-person podcast at events. I loved it so much that when I go to a conference in September, I'm going to try it out. I actually talked to the conference planner. I was like, hey, you know, I was talking to a friend and acquaintance and we were talking about having live podcasts at the events and he was like we've never done that before. But you know what, bring whatever you have and let's try it. So, mike, I do want to thank you for that. I want to thank you publicly for that as well, because for all those listening, if you've heard Mike or you kind of see what he's doing, those public podcasts are kind of cool because it's not the norm, it's not what people are used to. So if you see him in a conference, make sure you reach out to him and say, hey, do you have your equipment with you so we can do a live podcast, because I think it's just a cool concept, because a lot of us small business owners don't think about that.
Speaker 2:But social media and and being on radio. Being on radio is actually old school. I mean, I, I those hand radios, I think that's what they call them. People have been doing those for decades. Right, it's just now. We're more digital, so, yeah, it's all right. So I just want to give you a quick shout out, because it popped into my mind.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:When we were talking about that and doing it. Sorry, guys, I get excited. Three hours of sleep. I know I've only had water in this Two bottles of water.
Speaker 2:But for me, if people are looking for me, my favorite platform right now is LinkedIn. I do a lot of posting there and you can just find me at Michael Laettler. That's the main area. Obviously, my website talks about what I do doesn't really show everything, because websites only show so much and that's MichaelAettler as well, where I post videos weekly about different leadership, different self-awareness, as well as a podcast that I put on there as well. And then, obviously, my email is michael at michaelalaitlercom. So any of those areas, you can reach me. If you want my cell phone number, you can definitely reach out. I don't mind any of that, but I definitely want to make sure we connect at some point. Obviously, maybe me and Mike can bring up this podcast to wherever you're located at and we can do a live on there with you as our third guest or something like that. But, yeah, to reach me, linkedin, email, my website are all viable options.
Speaker 1:Well, that sounds great. Um, thank you so much for coming on the prison officer podcast. Um, I know there's a lot of people are going to enjoy this episode and getting to learn a little bit about you and hearing about the good work you're doing out there, because I think it's good for the correctional officers, the prison officers out there to see. It was good for me to look at people when I was there and know that there was life outside of that. You know, eight, 16 hours I spent working in in seg. So, um, there's plenty to do out there. Guys, uh, uh, grab the reins, learn some public speaking, join toast masters. You know there's uh, you can go however far you want to go and, uh, michael proves that. So, thank you very much and, uh, we'll talk at you soon. Bye, thank you, mike.
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